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when music stops being product, we get culture back

(77 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by atari.holocaust
  • Latest reply from CRY0G3N
  • 4 Members Subscribed To Topic

  1. Psychopomp

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    the crack head psycho

    Combichrist is a perfect example of how even the fundamental thought process in our scene has shifted from putting value on complex and abstract, creative music (art) and rather now toward the base primal thumping beats and foul language of some blond tart jumping all over the stage like an animal.

    Bands like Combichrist and Hocico sadly seem to be the blueprint for the future of our scene if it is to survive in a commercial sense.

    To strip away the intellect and appeal loudly, forcefully and directly to the primal senses.

    All other form of this genre trying to deliver a deeper or abstract message and sound will be ignored due to the fact that if it offers no superficial value, no immediate gratification, if your friends aren't into it, if you can't shake your hump at the dance club to it then there is no perceived value. Only the odd scholarly weirdo will take a chance on such music going forward.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. kr-lik

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    @Stefan.

    yeah right. tell me know how an upcoming "professional" band is supposed to PAY for all those people. Especially when you sell 1000 copies of your CD, barely play gigs because nobody wants to invite an unknown band.

    before you start getting money to pay those people, you'll starve yourself.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. djtekslave

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    ''All other form of this genre trying to deliver a deeper or abstract message and sound will be ignored ''

    I don't think it's ever been acknowledged by the mass before.

    It will not be ignored, but only appeal to a minority, as it always has.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. djkrat

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    In ye olde times stuff like multi layered complex classical music was the stuff for kings, queens and the nobelity.

    Normal folks listened to simple folkbands singing about the joy of humping and boozing up and rioting.

    Nothing has changed since those days.
    Sir Mix-a-lot knows best!

    [+] Embed the videoGet the Flash Videos

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. djtekslave

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    Complex layered boozing is where it's at !

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Psychopomp

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    the crack head psycho

    The scene needs another drunken Supernaut anthem.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. "yeah right. tell me know how an upcoming "professional" band is supposed to PAY for all those people. Especially when you sell 1000 copies of your CD, barely play gigs because nobody wants to invite an unknown band.

    before you start getting money to pay those people, you'll starve yourself."

    Exactly. I dont disagree with you here. Right now the balance between what you have to invest in terms of time, money and talent, and the "Return investment" is actually completely out of order. And that means it is becoming close to impossible for newcomers to make the firstfew steps without going broke.

    @malfunct:
    "
    I'm sorry but paid music has stopped being good music a long time ago. Whoever said that doesn't seem to be buying many albums. That the music is paid has nothing to do with its quality. Actually, the chance that you are going to find quality music on a label is not more than the chance that you are going to find something worthwhile on myspace."

    We must be living in different dimensions, as I buy a lot of music and I am still amazed on the wealth of good music I am getting. Needless to say thre is a lot of music that is just not "for me", but I ave to udnerstand that, when production requirements are sinking, more music can be made for very select target audiences. But this has NOTHING to do with paiuid vs. free music, in my opinion. also, i would be very interested in your list of recommended "free" music artists. because I only know less than a handfull that I really like.

    "On the contrary, it is getting harder for real artists to get signed as more scam art is finding its way to the labels, I could count a few bands that are totally shit yet sell like crazy... Should I?"

    Why not? But I think we would heading towards a "taste" argumentmore than a paid vs. free argument.

    Stefan

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. malfunct

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    Okay, what I think is that, the over-commercialization of music has consistently driven good art away. So the bullshit that plays on MTV is commercial music, but whoever that's not a complete jerk or a moron listens to that crap? It's got no soul, no meaning, no nothing.

    The stuff on beatport is amazingly commercial and yet at the same time hollow to the same extent.

    I suppose you want me to talk about industrial labels and industrial artists. That's easy. Good example is Meat Beat Manifesto, one artist that I was so influenced by, and he went into a wider and colorful, new kind of music, does anyone take a hint? (Perhaps except some of the more gifted like Cervello Elettronico?) No! We have to invent our own cliches, and stick to them, turn the whole industrial scene into some kind of dumbed down "mechanical" version of the same MTV pop culture that's so outright disgusting.

    I don't know, I must be getting old :P The thing is, this scene seems to thrive upon redundancy and triviality, which are not qualities that are part of industrial. The new stuff is way too predictable, way too pop. That's the problem. Originality has become rare and even UNDESIRABLE, and I do believe my point that the casual "amateur" band has a lot more space for originality.

    In the wider spectrum, this seems to be happening to all the genres. I see this as the commerce of music reducing art to excrete, and it happens because of the completely false predictions of capitalism.

    These restraints will not always be present. There will be more opportunity for original art to be commissioned and to be made, and not made into a banal product. There will be more opportunity for the artists to make a living. And then the floodgates will open. I kinda think we must be like the authors discussing how this new devilish printing apparatus will affect their work. Plenty, it had turned out.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. DIGIFLESH

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    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. "Combichrist is a perfect example of how even the fundamental thought process in our scene has shifted from putting value on complex and abstract, creative music (art) and rather now toward the base primal thumping beats and foul language of some blond tart jumping all over the stage like an animal."

    huh... another dis on Combi, what a surprise... I don't see it that way at all. For me Combi is a perfect example of bringing back the fun that was lost a long time ago in Industrial music. They put on an excellent show that is seriously great to watch and listen to. Anybody that has seen them play live and says otherwise is either just lying or seriously jealous of all their combined talent...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. @ Malfucnt:

    Like I thought, this is more of a "Taste" discussion than it is a "free vs. paid music" discussion.

    Meat Beat Manifesto were always an exceptional band, and I think there are other bands in other genres that are coming close to them, check out a lot of the WARP stuff for instance. But MBM were never industrial for me in the first place.

    it is true that this scene has taken a downturn (At least from the perspective of us older guys) in terms of innovation, but other genres are holding up well, and I lobe a lot of the Hymen/Ant-Zen stuff (just to name one example). Ironiacally enough, the best industrial does come from Non-industrial bands right now.

    I am still waiting for you good examples on free music. Where is your free music MBM equivalent?

    Stefan

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. c-scan

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    When yoghurt stops being milk, we get culture back.

    Just saying.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. When it stops raining this weekend, we get our culture back.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. djtekslave

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    Te relaunch the debate, here's a broad definition of the word Product found in Wikipedia:

    ''The noun product is defined as a "thing produced by labor or effort"[1] or the "result of an act or a process",[2] and stems from the verb produce, from the Latin prōdūce(re) '(to) lead or bring forth'.''

    Looking at this definition it doesn't seem to be in contradiction with culture, and even it seems that music can only be a product.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. > Dkrat
    > Pop composers know what they're doing more than anyone in the industrial scene

    Tell that to James Thirlwell. There are few good modern EBM/gothdance artists because this scene's become full of hair bands (Much like Screamo, Punk, and Alternative Rock at the moment). The Industrial scene is still rife with great bands (Are we forgetting Zu? They're mainly a jazz group, but Carbon's an amazing album with Industrial tendencies.)

    (Also, it takes little effort to choose the same four chords from any random scale and call it a pop song)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. @c-scan

    "When yoghurt stops being milk, we get culture back."

    FUNNY! that's awesome.

    I don't want to get into the semantics about the definition of "product". I think we all get the point of what were talking about. Homogenized, mediocre output made to appeal to the lowest common denominator, with the prime motivation to move "units" for profit. or something along those lines.

    Malfunct gets the idea:
    "In the wider spectrum, this seems to be happening to all the genres. I see this as the commerce of music reducing art to excrete, and it happens because of the completely false predictions of capitalism."

    What I think I'm trying to get at is the affect on the art when artist consciously or subconsciously,when he/she is aware that this work will be SOLD.

    Experimenting and risks are not taken. which is one of the reasons this band the children of the plague decided to just give their stuff away. which is why dig working with them from a engineering point-of-view. they no longer have to explain to a label guy why the guitars sound that way, or why the vocals are buried in one part but not the other. No more standards to follow when you don't have to worry about appealing to people's pocketbooks. You can be risky. you can be honest.

    Every "label guy" i have ever known, even the cool ones, have their 2-cents on what would make something a better record. Imagine if someone was standing behind Jean-Michel Basquiat, telling him "you need to make more sense" or behind Picasso going "you don't have to make it more realistic, but perhaps a bit of Monet's style would look better". Most criticisms leveled against music usually seem to be that it doesn't SOUND like something else or meet some standard.

    Can we not understand anything without some sort of context or precedent?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. djtekslave

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    @atari
    Still, in spite of your striking example, you can't deny that some of the best art ever produced by humanity has been produced with a commercial idea in mind. How many paintings, sculptures, operas, buildings etc... were created with full knowledge that they were to be sold ? An endless array. Why do you think the Renaissance is one of the most innovative times in history in terms of art and design ? Because the work was comissionned by the elite.

    Also on a more micro approach, who's to say that the 2 cents from the label guy does not benefit the work in the end ? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but I don't think it can be set up as a rule.

    I command the band you're promoting for backing their opinions with actions, but I find it erroneous to pretend that free art is good art, and that labels are selling to the lower denominator. Go tell that to Cold Meat Industry, Dependent, Warp, Mute etc...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. testube

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    To make a living off of one's music/art, I'm thinking that you either sell out to some more mainstream market, or find a way to live *extremely* lean so that you can survive on a typical artist's income. The latter approach is more respectable and more *artistic* (imo), and can be difficult. Particularly if you live in a country where you are expected to buy, buy, buy in order to be cool/contemporary/patriotic. I myself have decided that I am going to be an artist, musician, and writer and try to make a living off of it. What makes it more challenging for me is that I have a family to house/clothe/feed. Single musicians would probably have a much easier time with this, as their demands and responsibilities are far fewer.

    So how can a "family-man" expect to do this, without "selling out" in some way? This won't suit most people, but here's my general blueprint...

    1) Quit buying things and trying to "keep up" with fashion, technology, etc.
    2) Quit watching television (helps adhere to step no. 1) and other bad vices
    3) Cash in your 401k or build up some savings
    4) Use that chunk of cash to buy some land
    5) Build your own house - tiny, cheap, maybe off-grid, with no mortgage
    6) Try to survive on as little money as possible
    7) As your income requirements dwindle, quit working jobs you don't like.
    8) Make more art - music, visual, whatever...if it doesn't pay well, it doesn't matter because your bills are so few.

    At least that's my theory...

    I'm about half-way through the list at this point. I'm sure this sounds ridiculous to most people, but I see the concept of "voluntary poverty" as a valuable avenue for the modern artist. We've been led to believe that we need to sustain this high income / high expense mode of living in order to be "successful" and happy. But if living lean will allow me to do what I enjoy for a living, then I'm taking that route.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. fractured

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    if you dont sell enough (to your own standards) to live off your indie music, either get better at it or get a new job - and if you're concerned about living off the grid of the big bad record companies then dont complain when you have bad promotion and everything is DIY and looks ghetto.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. @fractured- you are so off base it's laughable. Get better at indie music to sell more? No, i agree with what Jeff said, if you want to make money, make commercial music. If you want to turn indie music into commercial music you are a fool. If you want to make a living off your music without selling out, you have to change the means in which you live and you need to think hard about your presentation and more effective means of promotion than pointless postcards and sending free music to DJ's

    And DIY often looks much more attractive and professional when compared to mass produced shit jewel case CD's with terrible "photoshopped", press photos.

    `michael

    Posted 1 year ago #

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