when music stops being product, we get culture back

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when music stops being product, we get culture back

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Started 1 year ago by atari.holocaust
Latest reply from CRY0G3N
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atari.holocaust

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hi my name is Phineas.

I decided to join this forum because I was interested in discussing the value of music, specifically goth-rock/ industrial music and their place in modern society as a subversive role rather than a niche sub-culture.

first and foremost I just wanna say I am a "producer" and engineer of a band called THE CHILDREN OF THE PLAGUE.
While I'm not gonna sit here and spam about the band, my views on music culture stem from working with them the past couple of years and the difficulties they have experienced trying to GIVE their music away.

I first got interested in working with the band when I heard thru an acquaintance that the group didn't want to sell their music anymore and were having issues with their (at the time) label.

I recall when "downloading" mp3s first became prominent. At the time I thought to myself that niche hip-hop and goth/industrial music would be the first to make "FREE RECORDS" common practice and that it would just become what people did.

But our modern culture has been so conditioned as "product" being the definition of quality.

You'd think goth-industrial, what you could consider "outsider art" would be on the forefront of making giving away music standard practice. You'd think music with dystopian themes, anti-establishment lyrics and no mainstream market to cater to would shirk capitalist enterprise. Instead everyone and their mother has a "LABEL" to put things on itunes, no one buys.

I'm of the thinking that words like "label" and "single" are slave talk. Created to define "products" instead of art.
and that we have the tools for a digital music renaissance but need to break the misconceptions that FREE MUSIC cant be GOOD MUSIC.
Does anyone else feel the same?

Anyhow. The Children of the Plague released their new record ROCKET TO RAPTURE, this week for free. Its the 2nd record I've worked with them with, and it's really great. Its free to download at: www.thechildrenoftheplague.com
The problem they seem to have is simply getting people to listen to them. they truly believe in making the records themselves and giving them away, but i think public preconception of what "music how/should be" works against them.

I just find it very frustrating. The internet changed everything, but it someways did not.

Posted 1 year ago #
djkrat

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I think you got it all wrong.

First off all: Free music is shit music.

The problem is not good bands releasing good music for free, but a monsterous amount of bad bands releasing music for free. Acces to production techniques is easy, getting the results on the internet is easy, and this leads to an enormous stream of bad and bad produced music cluttering the web. Without labels filtering the drabble the audience is subjected to the full brunt of badness and mediocre and loses interest. That's why most people do not listen to free music anymore. They get dissapointed to often.

getting signed to a label or releasing a album on vinyl or CD yourself says to me that the band or label thinks they have something worthwhile. The label is willing to put money in it, or the band is willing to put some money into themselves, and then i will listen.

A band who released free on the web is most likely to be a band which labels have no interest in, or a band who apparently don't want to invest in themselves. In 95% of the cases (maybe more) this means the band is bad or at most mediocre. I tend to ignore free releases and this strategy works quite well.

Posted 1 year ago #
Rogue Process

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Yeah, I'd argue that in actual fact, there has been a LOT of free industrial music released over the past few years. It's just because of things like lack of promotion (not just that the bands in question lack promoters, but that the band/act themselves have no talent at promotion), most of it has flown right under the radar compared to the stuff that IS released on labels.
I also agree that almost all the free music that has been released throughout the years has really not been that great at all. The only release that I can think of that I downloaded for free and actually really enjoyed is Slip Through by Comaduster:

http://www.comaduster.com/

Anyway, I hate to come across as overly negative, but that Children of the Plague band? Honestly, it seems like a lot more time was spent on the artwork than the music. The mix is muddy, the guitars sound horrible, and I'm absolutely not a fan of those vocals. I don't really get where the whole 'label and single are slave talk' argument is coming from, especially when the band is still releasing in the album format, and has EPs available through iTunes. Surely that kind of contradicts the argument?

Posted 1 year ago #
djtekslave

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It is a myth that free art is good. Throughout history, art has ALWAYS been a commodity. People would buy art, people would commission artists to perform works of art, especially during the renaissance era.

There is nothing wrong to it as long as the purpose remains art.

Posted 1 year ago #
ketoujin

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I see a label also as a partner. If I´m undicided about the tracks for a new CD I collect this tracks and meet with the owner of the label or send him this. He listen to it, give me his judge from different points of view. And he sometimes help me with contacts for gigs. And if he comes to that gigs he ask if everything is ok or I need something. Of course a good promo agency can do the same. But most promo agencies are probably not so interested in this music I make. And there some other little things that can be helpful on a label.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cyberium

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First of all, I don't know how you can say free music is shit music. That makes absolutely no sense. Your saying if you go out and pay 20 dollars for an album (of which maybe 1 dollar goes back to the artist... maybe) it some how makes the quality better? I totally understand your point about the massive amount of bedroom musicians flooding the market with shit... I get it. But the sad fact is... many, many people don't pay for music anymore. So when I see some artists I respect such as Nine Inch Nails, Comaduster, Av*ver*sary, and The Shizit to name a few, give their music away for free at least it is on their terms. At least if people are downloading music through their outlet's, they can track how popular it is and maybe get a marketing plan in place instead of people downloading off torrents and the such. People make music to be heard... and for some of the above mentioned bands, that seems to be the most important thing, that their music gets out and is appreciated. It's painfully apparent that it's almost impossible to make any sort of decent income from music these days so the next best thing is to make it as widely available as possible.

Posted 1 year ago #
djkrat

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Free music is shit music. I will repeat that one more time: Free music is shit music.

You're arguments are not important, because the bad bands are ruining the market for the good bands. They are producing a never ending stream of shit which scares off the potential listener. Bands like NIN and so on, are already known from better days in music (when labels and printed magazines weilded out the shit), so they already have an audience.

If a band wants to put their music for free on the net, that's up to them. But they never get heard because of the shitstream which floods the net. People do not want to wade through endless piles of shitty free releases to find the few gems.

What they want is free downloads of professionaly recorded and played music. That this system will not hold seems pretty logical to me.

And yes, if you go out and buy the album, you get a much better product, because there was someone investing in the artist, providing it with studio's, mastering, promotion, idea's, feedback and support.

And i don't give a rats ass about that fact that people don;t pay for music anymore. Those people can enjoy the shit which are the free releases, because in the end that will be the only thing they get to hear when real good and good recorded quality music will be down the drain because of those freeloading assholes.

Posted 1 year ago #
S80

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Shots for all !

One word to disprove paying for music means better music....

Extize

Posted 1 year ago #
djkrat

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You can say that, but they actually sound less horrible then the bulk of the so called "free releases" out there. And one exception to the rule does not make it not true. A&R managers make mistakes as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
S80

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Shots for all !

No it doesn't but neither does a few bad free releases. Flesh Field have their entire back catalog for free on their site, doesn't make them shitty.

There are lots of shitty free releases, there are also a lot of shitty paid releases, it goes both ways, regardless of the monetary value of releases there will always be some sifting through the shit to find the few jewels.

Posted 1 year ago #
AlanVext1

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I kinda like this free album from Children of the Plague..

The Slip is awesome.

So, the argument free music is shit music is completely false, imo.

But....music is subjective and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one....so, its a lose/lose situation. Which is why arguments are never-ending :)

Posted 1 year ago #
djkrat

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Like said earlier. There are a few good free releases, but the bulk of it is pure crap. Though paid releases might have shit releases as well, its not nearly as much as free releases. If i check the promo's i get for DJing i estimate about 50% under the quality mark, which is significantly less then 98% for free releases.

And sifting through the shit is easier with paid releases because with a 50% under quality ratio you will find something nice every 2 realeases. With a 98% shit ratio this will be something worthwhile every 50 releases. Given the fact that free releases are much more abundant then paid releases the amount of shit is staggering. It also comes down on effort. Do you realy want to listen to 49 shit releases to find the one good one? Maybe you do, but most people won't. And that's where free releases are failing.

Flesh Field is a lot better on CD i must say. :D

Posted 1 year ago #
soillodge

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yeah Pieter but you love Combichrist so your shit-ratio meter is all wacked out :P
[i'm totally joking here]

A free release does not guarantee shit. You can do a free release with the proper platform and show that you are serious and have put a lot of time into the music. For example Ad·ver·sary, Out Out, Comaduster, and Urceus Exit. Free music does not mean it is garbage-it means the band really wants you to take a chance on them and cut through the bullshit morality which is really a business profit motive. Just like the atari.holocaust mentioned, it was a way for artists to break away from the constraints of making a consumer product.

Still in regards to Children of the Plague-you would have put up a flash player. I am going to download this zip file and get around to listening to it eventually. You could have avoided it by making a more in your face approach to showing off the music. The art alone does not cut it.

`michael

Posted 1 year ago #
Eric Christian

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@djkrat
"getting signed to a label or releasing a album on vinyl or CD yourself says to me that the band or label thinks they have something worthwhile. The label is willing to put money in it, or the band is willing to put some money into themselves, and then i will listen."

Kind of a broad generalization I think... 99% of the music at Best Buy is absolute crap and its all on major labels. On the other hand if you are refering to just the genre of Industrial I would say that you're opinion is a little closer to reality but I think there is still plenty of CD's put out by the industrial labels that have your cookie cutter beats, random hellraiser/horror movie samples and token aggro vocals.

Posted 1 year ago #
NicolasCageIsCrazy

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i heart me some dark texas!

"when music stops being product, we get culture back"

Didn't get past the title of this thread, because it's utter bullshit.

Posted 1 year ago #
kr-lik

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hey now.

my release ain't that bad.

but then again...

it's available free on the internet... and on a CD which you have to pay for... hmmm now what that makes my music....

Posted 1 year ago #
djkrat

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Eric Christian: You are completely wrong. Do not mix up taste with quality. I have experimented with pop compostions and midi's and based on that i can say almost all popmusic and top 40 music is better composed and produced than everything in the industrial and goth scene. That it does not cater to your taste has nothing to do with quality. Whoever writes music for Britney Spears or Boyzone for instance do know damn good what they are doing. They own everyone in this scene big time. Taste is not quality. I do not like the music of Britney Spears because its too sweet and commercial for my taste. But this does not mean its bad music. It is actually very, very, very good crafted music. If those guys who make that music one day decide to make an industrial album we are all out of business.

Posted 1 year ago #
The Black Oil

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Humans are always going to attach value to things. You can't "subvert" away human nature. If everything is free, people will care less about it. All music being free is not a way to build a sustainable long-term model between musicians and listeners IMO. That doesn't mean the typical, current model is necessarily good either, though.

As an aside, I'm not sure whether Comaduster tried to shop his stuff to labels or just decided to put this stuff out there for free to begin with, but if the former, its certainly proof that labels aren't the be-all, end-all of quality control.

Posted 1 year ago #
DIGIFLESH

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I agree with the premise that being signed to a label gives the artist "instant credibility".

Relate this principal to movies. Are you more likely to go to a multiplex to see a film... Or go to some strangers house and see a free private screening in his basement... Even if it had the exact same content... How would that make you feel... Especially if you weren't a movie maker who knew what it took to get your movie distributed...

I do realize this example is an exaggeration.

You can not compare artists with established careers converting to the free model. Apples and oranges...

P.S. Way to be mean to the new guy! Ouch! Lot's of inflammatory language on this thread already... I'm putting my fireproof suit on.

Posted 1 year ago #
atari.holocaust

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I'm not overly affected by the negative comments. And i can appreciate some of the opposing view points.
I realize some who have worked in the old system for so long and have convinced themselves that they are making progress in the old way of doing things, won't being convinced otherwise. they've been convincing themselves the opposite for so long....

As for criticisms towards the plague record, everyone's entitled to their opinion. There not for everyone. they tried really hard to make an album that doesn't sound like anything else. especially the vocals and guitars. we tried to meet each song with a different approach, but with the same rule applying to the guitars and vocals: make them not like guitars and vocals have been done before. So if you don't like it based on contemporary standards of vocals and guitars, well thats on you, can't open your mind for you. and taste is subjective anyhow.

The criticism about the band is contradicting their argument by being on itunes and working in the "album" format is false as well. They were previously on a record label headed by a ex-universal vice-president, which is why their first record (and EP) is on itunes. Their opinion is informed because they tried meeting the system half-way and in the end got/felt burned. Secondly, i feel the "album" format is valid as an artistic medium despite thats how music has been "packaged" the last 50 years. for hundreds of years bodies of work have been a collection of songs, going back as far as opera and arias.

The complaint of a flash player or some sort of way to "preview" the music is a valid argument. Perhaps some way to see what you're getting into before downloading may be good. But seems more an aesthetic argument given that the record is completely free.

I really like the idea of challenging the expectations of what music/bands SHOULD be doing. rather than what an artist feels he is EXPECTED to do to get his point across, boiling down the essence of expression and their artistic goals. value is subjective and to put a standard on by how we measure "good" is a real shitty thing to do. i am all for artists stop thinking about "business models" (because the game is rigged) and just worry about making stuff and getting it to people.

Of all the artist I have known there is one constant: Its all about who you know, not how good you are.
Because the game is rigged, we should encourage artists to find a way out this "musician rat-race".

Posted 1 year ago #

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