Industrial Music forum » Music news discussion forum

This r srs post: Role of labels in MP3 age?

(37 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by Rogue Process
  • Latest reply from panzerschreck

  1. I would like to add a label’s perspective to this thread. For everbody that does not happen to know, I run a record label (www.dependent.de)., and we signed Kr-liks project for one disc (Controlled Collapse), but the label had to discontinue, as it was a joint venture with Johan form Suicide Commando, and could not continue, although it worked kind of well.

    Anyway, the first question an artist should ask himself is: What is my goal, why am I making music? If it is self-expression, art, hobby-approach then there is nothing wrong with DIY. Even if you want to make some bucks with it you can still consider the DIY route.

    However, know this: What a (professional) label does is (usually) the following:

    Selection/Filtering (A&R)
    Quality control
    Distribution
    Manufacturing
    Financing
    Promotion
    Marketing,
    Networking
    Licensing
    Accounting

    All these activities still make sense, although the market its (undeniably) shifting. It is currently shifting in a direction that does not really support creating added value with music at all, and this hurts labels and artists alike. There is way to much cheap and bad music out there, so it becomes more and more important to even reach a basic attention level.
    This means that the above tasks are more and more eroding. This makes labels look bad, but DIY does not exactly get easier either, in fact it gets equally (or even more) problematic. Yes, you need to sell 5 times more CDs through a label to make about the same money, but please don’t forget that normally the bands income consists of income through live, merch and record sales, while a (successful) record is usually the ticket to be able to play live and sell merchandising.
    I don’t know ANY music groups that do a successful DIY approach in this scene that can afford touring on their own. Correct me if I am wrong. So yes, labels jobs are shifting and not every release through a label model is a success. However, I think the chance of developing a successful career iss still more likely if you go through a label compared to going through DIY.

    This is not tring to “diss” DIY, but I can hardly see a musician that knows how to it from scratch, and even in a DIY-world you don’t have an infinite amount of time and tryouts.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. (I typed the above thread in a seperate page to not loose it to the infamous "Refresh" bug. Clever, aren't I?).

    And: Random Avatars? Side-line, what are you thinking?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. I don’t know ANY music groups that do a successful DIY approach in this scene that can afford touring on their own.

    Cyanotic sold over a thousand records and toured heavily before signing to Bitriot.

    With that said, I don't think the question is "what is the role of a label", I think the question is "do I think I'm as good of a businessman as I am a musician, and do I have as much time to dedicate to promotion as I do to writing music". If the answer is no, then you're likely going to be better off at a label.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Undercult

    offline
    Member

    Thanks for the label input Stefan, good to know what people involved in the industry actually think. I've heard a lot of people be successful in DIY but never as much as with a label. I think a lot of people in industrial go 'oh but they'll throttle my creativity!' but I think thats not really the case, as they wouldn't have signed you unless they liked what you're doing.

    One question for the group, how easy do you think it is to live off our kind of music? I know combichrist and stuff must, but what about lower down, thinking of people like Soman, unternull, grendel and all that lot? I know alot of people that survive off dance music due to the huge amount of events they can play at, but I always wonder about industrial.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. One question for the group, how easy do you think it is to live off our kind of music?

    Terrorfakt lived off his music when he was playing 200+ shows a year. That's what it takes, though. It has to be your full-time job.

    I wouldn't want to live off my music, personally. I don't ever want to be in a position where I have to make sure people like my album or I can't pay rent. If I wanted to write music for a living I'd work in a studio or get into incidental music, soundtracks, licensing, etc. But live and eat off of my own project? No way.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Someone said it many threads ago but it has stuck with me. How can you possibly see yourself as a successful musician if you can't even make promotion and such your first priority? I am dead on the same as the OP. I have now 3 CDs out on my own label. I broke even with the first with very little promotion, lost money on the second with almost no promotion at all, and have barely sold any of my third release despite the fact that it is by far my best one no question. Why? Absolutely no promotion at all. I literally sent it to places to sell like CDbaby and iTunes hoping that people will stumble across it doing searches for similar bands.

    This is a conscious thing though. I am busy with my day job and family and cannot be touring all the time if any time at all. I've been told by 80% of musicians I know that the way you sell cds is you play live. A lot. All over. You learn to live on nothing and do all of the work yourself. If that sounds like too much work for you, then do a DIY and expect very little money back. No one will fault you for it. you're just being honest with yourself.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. i don't have time to read though all the replies, but will reply to your initial post...so maybe people have already said the same thing.

    The way I see it there are a few reasons for wanting to be on a label. You are correct about it putting a bit of credibility into a project if a label signs it. Essentially you are having your music branded. Certain labels definitely have a distinct style that they release and generally a certain level of quality control. Many people purchase albums of artists they have never heard of simply because they are on a label that they trust and generally like.

    The main reason though is for physical media production with no initial out of pocket investment of your own. What a label basically does when releasing your album is give you a big fat loan to print and distribute CDS. you provide them your material and they make the initial investment of printing. you make money as soon as a certain number are sold, or depending on contract a certain amount per CD. This has pros and cons actually. The good thing is that if you sell 3 CDs you wont loose all your investment, the label will. However if you sell 30,000 the label will be making a big part of the profit that you could have kept for yourself if you printed and released yourself. IMO it is much more difficult to do it yourself and it will take a long time to make back your capitol. You also wont have all the same resources and contacts at your disposal that a label does. This is a small scene and most label heads are friends or at least business acquaintances and they help each other out distributing each others product.

    Now since this is a rather small niche market there is not a lot of money to be made for anyone, so labels do expect and encourage bands to promote themselves, especially when it comes to online marketing and touring. However, in my case I'm on NoiTekk and they do a lot of print promotion in magazines like Zillo and Orkus. The label also knows how to send promotional material to. They know the places to send promo discs where they will actually be played and not just wasted CDs.

    As far as stuff like merch goes. Some labels do print merch, but generally the artist gets a small cut of sales and has to buy their own product from the label if they want to sell it at shows. Self made merch is where a lot of bands, even big ones, make their real money.

    Even in a digital music age I will continue to release music on established labels and on physical product simply because I love albums and i know there will always be a market for it, no matter how small.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. fractured

    offline
    Member

    If you want to really understand the music industry on a commercial level that definitely has benefits to understanding indie labels I highly suggest the book 'All you need to know about the music industry' by Don Passman ( http://www.donpassman.com/allabout.html ) its a great read, you can even get it as an audiobook but it explains a lot about how labels work, how you get paid, how to make a proper demo, how to sell yourself, how to understand your contract and all the catch words and things to look for / watch for in signing a contract.

    As a band that is signed to Dependent I have to say that I really appreciate the work that Stefan does as a label owner and the time he invests into the bands he releases. I might not always agree 100% with him, but he always tries to get the best out of every band, and its a challenge to push yourself further to improve your craft which you will never experience without that 3rd party view.

    Some label owners dont even listen to the albums they release, and although I agree that there is a certain amount of 'creative freedom' involved I think its also partly the labels responsibility to filter the quality and push the artist. I think those labels are the ones that dont really do their jobs as labels which make it pointless to have signed to them anyway.

    Its unfortunate that there are so few labels left releasing 'industrial' music these days, and 99% of them that do exist are 1 man run on the side of a regular full time job balanced between girlfriends and whatever else life throws at us... it makes it almost impossible to get the promotion and financial assistance you need.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Undercult

    offline
    Member

    Yeah, I also think if you can DJ/have a few regular slots, plus gigs and maybe some sort of part time job you can manage it. I know one guy who used to worked at a goth club/bar part time and then did gigs and dj'ing all the rest of the time, seemed like a great life.

    I think promoting is possible, but its difficult to do now as people have got pissed off with the usual internet marketing (messaging and adding people on social networks/posting big banners and pictures everywhere) that it takes abit more than that. Not sure what though.

    I also think as Pool said, it doesn't matter how good your stuff is if you can't get it out.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. just went back and skimmed some responses...there is a lot of talk about "loosing artistic freedom" if you sign to a label. If your label is controlling your sound then 1 of 2 things is taking place: 1) your label sucks or 2) your music isnt good enough and shouldn't be signed.

    I have two established projects both signed to fairly respected labels in the scene....one on NoiTekk and COP INT'L and the other project on Ad Noiseam. None of these labels have EVER made any sort of restrictions on what I release or sound like apart from maybe picking which tracks are on an album, but this is a process done with me and I have the final say when it comes down to it. These labels have done nothing but help me.... especially Ad Noiseam, seriousl if every label in the scene was ran the way Ad Noiseam was the world would be a much better place: tons of promo, an honest love for the music he releases, payment upfront, and gentlemen's agreements instead of contracts.

    that brings me to another point, a lot of people here talking about complicated contracts and lawyers...i can only assume these people have never gone through the process of signing with an indie label. If there even is a real contract it will/should be short, basic and uncomplicated.

    I think a lot of people here overestimate the amount of records established artists in the scene actually sell.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. @ Pool Waiter:
    You wrote:
    "Someone said it many threads ago but it has stuck with me. How can you possibly see yourself as a successful musician if you can't even make promotion and such your first priority?"

    My take as a record label is, that it is actually not your job to do promotion and marketing on your own, if you are actually a good artist. There are people that are very good at writing songs, singing, performing, but most of the time creative, artistical people *suck* at marketing. Hey, because they are artists! They suck at analysing and structuring tasks but are good in creation.

    I am afraid that - if this DIY thing is going to take over - we will actually see people that are mediocre artists, but great marketing people prevail over really good musicians. I am not sure if you realise this, but this is álready happening.

    @Nick: thanks for the support, I appreciate it.

    @Undercult:
    "One question for the group, how easy do you think it is to live off our kind of music?"

    well, it has gotten A LOT more diffcult since about 2003. I think live performance has taken a reater role in developing bands, but many bands cant get to tha threshold. A good example of a band breaking through life in this scene is Combchrist, but also Eisbrecher.

    But in order to do this properly, you must be flexible and have a good network. It is ironic that the internet doe snot at all deliver what we have been promised. Even the effect of "club" goes down quite a bit, and club used to be able to break bands on its own....

    anyway, i might not be able to visit this thread very frequently in the next couple of days, so happy holidays to everyone who reads this...

    Stefan

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Undercult

    offline
    Member

    Thanks for more input Stefan, I completely agree that the bands with the best marketing skills do better. There's some absolute rubbish out which is doing well, just due to good marketing and promotion, coupled with hours of makeup and aesthetics.

    I hate that. Really hate it. I also think that with industrial there isn't as much 'thinning of the herd' than in other genres, which makes it saturated with rubbish. Although its part of the appeal in industrial (even if you're rubbish, you can still pretend that you just meant it to sound like a knife stuck in a washing machine with a bag of cats) I think its alot different to dnb or techno or rock, where if you suck, people tell you, and you either stop or get a lot better.

    I may soon be thinned.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Psykick Vampyr

    offline
    Member

    "there is a lot of talk about "loosing artistic freedom" if you sign to a label."

    I should point out that my comment about artistic control was completely NOT about the music but simply that some labels have a distinct aesthetic and you might have to fit in with that. If you're committed to 100% artistic control over every aspect of your release as an entirety then you might want to be aware of that.

    If a label's just coming in and demanding that you change what your music sounds like then, yeah, walk away.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Undercult

    offline
    Member

    Yeah, I've heard of a few bands having to change their look to be a bit more 'homogenized' within the label. I think this happens mainly with pop and rock/metal labels, as industrial lets any old freaks in. =D

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. My comment about artistic control was spawned because I have heard it from so many bands through the years. It is amazing how little you can step out of the box and get treated like the village leper.

    `michael

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. "there is a lot of talk about "loosing artistic freedom" if you sign to a label."

    Well, it depends what you mean. if you mean artistic freedom like sounding ypourself, then that is usually what a label does not touch at all. But if you mean artistic freedom like "we can release a crap record/single", then that is something that a record label usually does not tolerate.

    We always try to let the bands sound like themselves, unless we think they make a really huge mistake with changing around a specific sound totally. Then the label's input is usually going into the direction of making a single sound strong, being clubcompatible, etc.

    If that is interferiung with artistic freedeom, then, we are probably guilty. but I like to think that most of the time that kind of input works in favor of the band nonetheless. We diont tell people to "osund like combichrist" or something silly along those liones. So there is a fine line to distinguish if you are talking about artistic freedom.

    And: Many artists are usually thankful for constriuctive input. We get this a lot when we review demos, artists are very thankful on critical feedback, especially in the demo stage.

    Stefan

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. maybe one of these days....one of these days...we will get more artists who don't give a fuck about making a "club compatible" song and let a CLUB REMIX make it club compatible.

    Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.