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1. 

   Tsarik
   

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   WILL PROBABLY PISS YOU OFF.

   i've been running into a problem a lot lately

   i guess its really because of my lack of knowledge and inexperience.. but i have a hard time layering different synth lines

   its like if i start with a synthy lead melody... it'll be hard to make a bassline for it... and if i start with bass, its hard to come up with a melody that'll fit on top of it

   this is something i'd really like to learn how to do. i've tried to stay in the same scale, and it has worked, but i know there is more i need to know

   so have any tips or know of some great resources on the net?

   this is what i'm working on that has me banging my head against the keyboard trying to write something to go with it

   http://soundcloud.com/rust-creep/work-in-progress

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   r3mote
   

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   godsgirls all the way

   practice playing the piano. you know, it makes perfect.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   Undercult
   

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   I've been playing the piano for the last 15 years and have done a lot of classical composition, I find the very, very best way to do this is think up a very complex melody (not stupidly so, but still complex) and then rip out loads of it for the start, and then build up (and vice versa).

   Also, for layering, don't be afraid to use the same notes or octave it up or down (using the same stripping off and the building back up method). Alot of people seem to think that good ( and complex music) is all about lots of transpositions and key changes, this is not true at all.

   Thirdly, I find that delegating parts of a melody to different synths, and then switching those around helps a lot with variation, as well as arping. a few of the longer notes (quietly).

   Just a few thoughts, remember that simple is better, and that unless the melody is invading your brain throughout the day, its not catchy enough.

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   YADE
   

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   http://www.alles-uke.de/theory.htm

   this may help you

   the Circle of Quints tells you which keys you can use and which chords fit the scale....

   for the records Dur = major, Moll = minor...so C-Dur is C-Major..

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   Tsarik
   

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   WILL PROBABLY PISS YOU OFF.

   thx Undercult and Yade

   i have heard of the circle of fifths/quints but never learned what it was or what it was useful for

   its mostly my laziness talking, which i rationalize because i have work related things i have to study from time to time.. and learning/study isn't always fun and can often be a little frustrating... but i have read some interviews of musicians i really admired where they said learning theory started to stagnate their creativity...

   i guess i don't have that problem though since i'm running into a wall... so more music theory it is... and here i was hoping for an easy fix, but i guess nothing worth doing is really easy.. except for masturbation

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   Undercult
   

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   @Tsarik, Chronic and violent masturbation is always the answer for lack of creativity.

   But seriously, I do sort of agree with the 'music theory can cause you to stagnate' approach, especially if you take it too seriously.

   Sometimes some discord and 'out of key' notes can create a lot more interest and melodies, in a lot of non-western music this is often a huge part of writing music. Especially if you try the 'resolve' approach, in which you make a discordant melody and gradually bring it back to being melodic and 'nice' (or don't).

   After listening to your song, I feel that you could do with having a deep but more 'lead' melody going over the top, maybe playing the same notes (higher octave, maybe/maybe not) but with a faster more rhythmical pace, but keeping that 'pushing' groove. If you've got the separate .wav files, I'd be more than happy to mix in a bit of what I thought.

   Sorry if none of that made sense, I'm tooo tired.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   hollowman
   

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   @Tsarik
   I am not so conversant in music theory as to be able to effectively communicate it to others. And I may be a questionable source of music knowledge as I tent to toss theory out the window a lot.
   But I will attempt to provide some simple tips for composing that generally apply well to industrial genres.
    
   The 1st tip is based on an example of my work. In the song Going Dark there is the main melodic theme that the song opens with. It is very simple and if it was repeated too often it would become annoying really quickly. That theme was originally played all within the same octave. In fact you can hear it played in the same octave at the end of the song by the Chroma Polaris with overdrive and a ton of delay on it. I wanted to repeat the theme several times without it becoming too tedious so I broke it up. I began playing it as octaves and recorded a take like that. I then sent the Midi from that take to a monophonic synth which naturally couldn't reproduce the octaves and instead alternated between one octave and the next based on the relative timing of the notes as they were played. This resulted in the theme as it is in the beginning of the song which is an interesting take on the original at the end.
   Note: quantizing is bad for doing this type of thing. Let it roll as played into the monophonic synth and then you can play with the timing of various notes to vary the octave switching effect.
    
   Now using that same song and melody line as an example here is the next tip.
   Christianity is stupid, Reductionism is good ;-)
   That main melody is really just a piece of a larger melody. The part of the song where it gets all noisy and harder sounding you will hear a sloppy solo being played. That solo is actually the base melody I originally came up with for the song. It is 8 bars long and spans two octaves in it's entirety. Repeating that more than once is pushing the limits of what people's attention spans can tolerate in music like this. So instead of using the whole thing I pulled a short motif from it to serve as my main theme. Then later when I play the entire thing for a solo it seems like I have expanded on the main theme when really the main theme is only a piece of a larger whole.
    
   Another simple tip for making a simple song more interesting is to try playing the same melody line at different note divisions. This is a common trick you can hear in alot of electronic music from the past. Take a short melody line and play it at quarter notes. Then go down an octave or two and play it with 8th notes. Try several permutations and combinations in this manner. In many of my songs I have done it backwards by playing the upper melody faster than the bass version. Or maybe the other way is backwards...
   Once you get something you like with this now try transposing the entire part.
    
   Being in one key signature throughout a song can be boring but most of the time with industrial music you can get away with it. Some of my favorite songs are simple structures like this. Shithammer by Numb is a good example and an all time favorite of mine. They repeat the same thing in the same key signature from start to finish. Mostly they utilize rhythmic variation to keep it from being too repetitive. If you hear the song you will see what I mean. Chop things up rhythmically by changing up between the beats of your rhythm track and the "ghost hits" between those beats. Try doing something funky.
    
   Jumping out of key signature or modulating is useful too. Throw some accidentals into your melodies every few bars. As long as they aren't really off sounding it can make things more lively and interesting. I am a big fan of building melodic lines that span two key signatures. Or ones that go from major to minor versions of the same key signature. It can be helpful for making things kinda spooky sounding. Funker Vogt does some very cool crap like this in some songs.
    
   My last tip is maybe a little extreme but it works for me. Stop listening to music in the same genre of music you make. Listen to other kinds of music and avoid the genre you do completely. And try to map what you hear into your own style. For example in my song De Sang-Froid there is an interesting bridge after the 2nd chorus that I virtually plagerized from the REM song Pilgrimage. I was on a road trip to DC and had that REM tape playing and when it got to that song I picked that bridge out of the song as something I really liked. It has a somewhat Martial sound to it that I thought could be worked into my own stuff somehow. While writing De Sang-Froid I ran out of ideas and was desperate for something to break up the monotonous song structure. The bridge from Pilgrimage came floating up out of some dark corner of my memory so I tried it and was like wow it actually works!
    
   When it comes to song structure itself look to rock music. Copy what you hear and usually it works great. I based my song Voice of Madness on some brutally simple punk rock songs I liked. For my Ballad of Indrid Cold II I tried many ideas for the song structure and melodies based on Heavy Metal songs I like.
    

   The important thing is that I almost never try to get ideas from other artists in the genre I am working in. I am guilty of it though. My song Decomposition was derived from the same Numb song I mention above. But mostly I find inspiration in other types of music and feel that this provides fresh ideas to create my own style within the genre I work in whatever that might be.
    
   And when you can't come up with anything musically satisfying then throw music out the damn window. Borrow one from the DJ book and toss in a breakdown. Puppy were masters of this. Showcase some of your more bizarre sound design experiments. Hell, do a drum solo. Be experimental. And always shoot for Brutal Simplicity. It is what sells.
   And check this out for fun
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   Tsarik
   

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   WILL PROBABLY PISS YOU OFF.

   Mike, that is exactly what i fucking wanted, tips and suggestions from experienced musicians, to save me from the bores of learning theory... i mean, according to music theory, some of my favorite music.. probably wouldn't be considered very musical

   i really appreciate you taking the time to do that beast of a reply and giving lots of clear examples for me to listen to

   i'll be trying everything suggested

   thx!

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   hollowman
   

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   My pleasure man. Be sure to check out Shithammer if you can find it. I believe it was on Numb's myspace profile last time I thought to look. Fucking work of art that one is!

   Try not to get too caught up in theory. It is Industrial you are making after all ;-)

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    Tsarik
    

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    WILL PROBABLY PISS YOU OFF.

    i already own all of Don Gordon's work

    Numb, Skinny Puppy and FLA were my lifes blood in the early 90s

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    hollowman
    

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    Sweet! I knew you had good upbringing! ;-)
    And a good example of master-class industrial songwriting check out Cop Shoot Cop. The White Noise album specifically.

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    Tsarik
    

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    man.. a guy i lived with in 2000 in akron was really into cop shoot cop, and i remember really, really liking one of the songs... forgot all about them, i'm going to have to find out what song it was... i can't even remember the melody or anything, just know that i liked something by them

    did they use guitars? or am i thinking of Cat rapes Dog?

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    hollowman
    

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    CSC had two bass guitars and a sampler I believe.
    Was your buddy in Ohio called Nato by any chance?

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    Tsarik
    

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    nah. his name was Joe and ThrillKill0 on AOL... can't remember his last name or my girlfriend's though... it was a strange time in my life

    akron had the coolest 80's bar named "thursdays." i really miss that place, and chasing after some beautiful lady that modeled for Chain Link Addiction but i can't even recall her name anymore either

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. 

    dodd
    

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    TACOS!

    this is something i'd really like to learn how to do. i've tried to stay in the same scale, and it has worked, but i know there is more i need to know

    Yes, it's called Harmony. It's the part of music that even experienced musicians struggle with.

    Seek harmony young padawan and you'll find what you're looking for

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. 

    Tsarik
    

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    WILL PROBABLY PISS YOU OFF.

    i'm guessing that just running some shit through my harmonizer isn't going to get it done though :P

    this harmony you speak of is very elusive

    i really dig the bassline.. i'm thinking i may just add non melodic elements that are interesting

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. 

    dodd
    

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    TACOS!

    A harmonizer combines frequencies related to the fundamental frequency to create harmony but that's not the harmony I'm talking about.

    Let's put it this way.

    Melody, is when the notes go good with each other horizontally on a music sheet.

    Harmony, is when the notes or melodies of different instruments go good with each other vertically on a music sheet.

    This is the harmony I'm talking about

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony

    When a synth lead matches a bassline and both match a synth pad, you've got yourself harmony in your music.

    Like I said before, it is a very complicated science that even experienced musicians wrestle with it so don't beat yourself up for not getting it right.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. 

    soillodge
    

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    Where does noise and discord fit in?

    `michael

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. 

    r3mote
    

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    godsgirls all the way

    dissonance

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. 

    soillodge
    

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    Yeah, where does that fit into the song writing process?

    I would love to help Josh on this, but I am not a good teacher. Often times I find songs just make themselves. I do not often set out to make a specific track. i just turn on the devices and see what happens. Lately, nothing is happening, so I just do other things until I feel inspired.

    Like Dead Space 2 :P

    `michael

    Posted 1 year ago #

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