Industrial Music forum

Electro, gothic, noise, darkwave from the Side-Line

Industrial Music forum » Music tech forum

21. 

    Modulate
    

    offline

    Member

    I've never used TRS for anything. What do you use it for?? I've only heard of it for patch bays and mixer insert points.

    I've seen some very big name bands tech riders...everything says "NO BEHRINGER!" until they get to the DI boxes, "BEHRINGER is fine for these". :)

    On certain things, esp vintage kit or passive pickups on a guitar, you are better with the active DI's because with the impedance mis-match you will lose the highs. It's exactly how a tone control works on a guitar.

    Haha, yeah, I explain why a DI box is a good idea and he doesn't need one with the MOTU! I'm sure it's useful to someone though. :)

    Yes...the ground lift solves the problem. It is because a laptop usually isn't grounded. If the problem goes away when you disconnect the PSU and run from battery it is definitely a grounding issue. When you suddenly connect it to the ground via the shielding on the XLR cables it causes interference. I'm not sure if the problem is caused by the on stage power and the FOH power being on the same power phase from the breaker box or on different phases or something else, because some venues have problems and some don't.

    The only thing I would add for other people is always always ask the sound guy to mute the channels when you are plugging things in and out of a DI box because they can tend to send a really nasty pop through the PA otherwise. I learned that lesson quickly! :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. 

    virul3nt
    

    offline

    Member

    I agree most places have DI's in the venue. I've played quite a few countries (incl. Holland 3 times, not that I'd venture to say I've reached any form of veteran status, mind) and it's always been the case.
    This is probably the only gig I'm going to do which doesn't provide DI boxes. The reason there are no DI's at this venue is that, while they are going to extend the stage for us, it is usually a club for DJs. The promoter can indeed hire some DI's for me, but the issue has really piqued my interest, and I've learned a lot thus far.
    And say, it costs $10-20 to hire 1 DI, or $40 to buy a cheap Active one, or $250 for a nice Passive with Jensen transformers, it's an interesting topic.

    So MOTU -> Balanced 1/4"-XLR cables -> Stage-box = all good?

    Oh and further to the ground-issue. I had grounding problems with my VAIO laptop, it always produced a hum (which went away when I pulled the power cable out). So I run it through 2 universal adapters, the second of which has no ground-pin, and it works fine with no hum.

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. 

    YADE
    

    offline

    Member

    @Virul3nt:
    "So MOTU -> Balanced 1/4"-XLR cables -> Stage-box = all good?" yepp....if your MOTU's XLR outs are line level...I would rather take the TRS outs of the MOTU and use an TRS-XLR Cable...

    if you really want some DI's I would go along with Geoff's hint to buy some Behringers....for your sound and instrumentation they are more than sufficient....

    about the unpinning of a grounded device.....ever asked which device, in case of a problem is then your grounded device :-)?

    usually the laptop or keyboard of your MIDI controller...= mucho oucho if the current runs into them :-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. 

    Modulate
    

    offline

    Member

    I think that the MOTU > balanced XLR > stagebox > mixer will work great. The only issue may be with grounding/hum. If you can avoid that with your transformers then use those.

    Just make sure their mixer can accept those inputs. Tbh find out where their DJ mixer goes and how it gets there. I'm guessing that exactly the same setup would work for you. If they are taking two balanced line outs from the DJ mixer into the FOH mixer then I think you are sorted.

    And given they don't put live bands on, check what their stage box is like. They may not be using XLR sockets if they don't mic up bands.

    As a last resort, run your soundcard into the DJ mixer on a spare set of channels.

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. 

    Modulate
    

    offline

    Member

    Unpinning devices...I really don't recommend that at all. You can get hum from a device that is grounded when it isn't normally, ie: a laptop or something with a wall wart that runs off low voltage DC or when you connect two grounded devices together, ie: a ground loop.

    If a transformer for a laptop etc doesn't have a ground pin, it's plastic or a 2 pin or something, then fine. But never disconnect a pin that should be connected. It is there for a reason. People die doing that kind of crap. http://www.abtt.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1178

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. 

    epytoneC
    

    offline

    Member

    IMHO, having your own stereo DI is always the best option. It may be overkill for nicer venues, but I trust that I have maintained my gear to the endth degree, so I can always be sure that no matter what bullshit happens, if there is a serious issue, it's the venue and not me.

    I also totally disagree about buying cheap DI, just because it's for live application. You play electronic music. You probably have a rather expensive computer/ audio interface set-up. Why degrade your perfectly clean signal path with a shit DI at the end? It makes no sense.

    Go Radial PRO. They are very compact and built like a Sherman Tank. A little more expensive, but far superior build quality. perfect for the wear and tear of the stage.

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. 

    soillodge
    

    offline

    Tech Moderator

    Preferences are all well and good, but in my experiences playing live on the west coast for so many years. Most venues go the cheaper Whirlwind route and they are solid little boxes and I have never had a complaint about using them. Even when hooking up old analog beasts live, guitars, multiple synths and drum units. So if you have the couple hundred dollars to blow, get pro DI boxes. But in my experience it is not necessary. Unless you like the extra colouring an active DI will do for your sound-or if you get something added like the BBE sonic maximizer.

    This will tend to go into the discussion about pro cabling i'm sure. :P

    `michael

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. 

    Modulate
    

    offline

    Member

    As nice as it would be to take our own DI everywhere it's just not practical to fly with 6 x DI boxes when you are struggling against the baggage weight limits already. We've only had one major problem at a show with DI boxes and frankly that is a venue I don't envisage us going back to again that had a crazy old 8 way DI box.

    I've used both, I couldn't tell any difference at all in signal quality over a concert PA. 75% of house DI boxes are the Behringers. They work, they sound good, and because they sell a lot of them they are cheap. If they sounded bad or were unreliable people wouldn't use them but they are built like tanks too, milled from a block of aluminium with rubber feet on the corners...which also stack if you have a stereo pair. Most audio professionals really beat down on Behringer kit, and not without reason, apart from the DI boxes. I'm guessing most people would rather spend £50 on a pair than £300 on a pair where you can't tell the difference anyway over a PA at a gig situation.

    Sure a good DI box will make a difference if you are putting a pickup, bass or electric guitar into it. But a line level synth?

    There is a lot of snake oil sold on the basis of 'more expensive must be better' and it's really not the case.

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. 

    virul3nt
    

    offline

    Member

    Radial PRO DI's are an interesting middle-ground actually.
    http://www.radialeng.com/di-prodi-prod2.htm
    The stereo one will cost a little bit more than 2 x Behringer D100's, but still well-priced. They're Passive, which seems better for our applications, and they use their own Radial transformers, which while they're not as nice as Jensens, are a tonne better than most brands and don't cost nearly as much as Jensen transformers. They're compact and sturdy enough to travel with too (moreso than the tank-like D100's).

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. 

    SVII-5AM
    

    offline

    Member

    My apologies for the misinformation...i don't know how i stumble through life sometimes....and not the kinda of guy you want to trust with things that can blow up and smoke.

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. 

    soillodge
    

    offline

    Tech Moderator

    I do not think you were the one spreading misinformation- it appeared the trouble was with what salespeople were feeding Virul..

    DI operations are simple if you just consider them a necessary component to playing live. Then if you do not need them, don't use them. But an extra 100$ spent on performance security is a good investment. + the sound people will respect you more if you know what you are doing when you set up and actually work with them, instead of giving them the usual laundry list of issues to figure out.

    `michael

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. 

    iparasite
    

    offline

    Member

    For what it's worth, live I use whatever cheap Whirlwind DI boxes. Most club PAs are sketchy enough that it really won't make a difference. Certainly not worth stressing over.

    In the studio on the other hand, I like the high quality stuff that imparts a nice color to the sound.

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. 

    moliere
    

    offline

    Member

    @virul3nt : Just a note, you mentioned your ipod sounded crap, not saying you're doing this, but I've found a couple of people that use the headphone output on the ipod and connect it through a DI to the PA and it sounds pretty shit. There are proper line-outs in the dock connector, so if you get a dock connector to RCA adapter you'll get a much better signal (of course make sure you're using an uncompressed format). One of my projects tried with the headphone jack (for our first real practice) and it was just incredibly bad through our small PA system, we switched to the dock connector (proper line outs) and it was miles better.

    Posted 1 year ago #
34. 

    virul3nt
    

    offline

    Member

    @moliere: Yep I tried it with a dock via RCA outs. Certainly better than the mini-jack headphone output, but it still doesn't compare to the nice D/A converters on the MOTU interface with gold 1/4" connectors playing 24bit files (iPods can only play 16bit files last I checked).
    Not that I'm saying anything against those who do use iPod backings; I've done that in the past too. Sometimes convenience is more important than that extra 10% quality... But the difference is noticeable.

    Posted 1 year ago #
35. 

    YADE
    

    offline

    Member

    @Geoff: I use TRS because of this :-)

    http://www.alesis.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/0/d9b1e64f2cd1c02ffacaa9eb6516f205/medium/hd24xr_back_med.jpg

    oh...and the problem with the hum was not my Laptop...even the DI did bring nothing...as it turned out (i finally did it....grrrr) some ultra-idiot has somehow welded the ground of their DJM to some even weirder cabling of their own..

    Posted 1 year ago #
36. 

    YADE
    

    offline

    Member

    @Virul3nt: there is something like an ipod DI on the market (fuck I forgot the name)....you can plug it in via the Ipod Connector and it offers a balanced TRS out...sounds pretty decent my friend tells...my old Band Lost Area uses them for live playback...so i could ask them for the name and brand...

    Posted 1 year ago #
37. 

    virul3nt
    

    offline

    Member

    @YADE: Maybe you mean the RADIAL one: http://www.radialeng.com/di-jpc.htm - it's got inputs like 1/4", 1/8" + RCA, and of course XLR outputs.
    I like the MOTU for playback ;)

    Posted 1 year ago #
38. 

    YADE
    

    offline

    Member

    nope I meant this one...specially designed for Ipods...

    http://www.thomann.de/gb/alesis_jamdock.htm

    btw: I always had problems with any MOTU device I owned....mostly driver problems...

    Posted 1 year ago #
39. 

    moliere
    

    offline

    Member

    yeah, I actually use my RME FF800 for playback on stage now with 24bit files, but thats really only because we're triggering samples from our live drums through the laptop (along with separate HW outs for backing and a separate headphone mix for the drummer). My other project is still ipod based, but just cause I hate carrying round my rack and laptop if its not necessary.

    Posted 1 year ago #
40. 

    virul3nt
    

    offline

    Member

    Sounds like a nice setup Moliere!
    I have a cable which you can get from any apple store which docks to an iPod and also connects to a power outlet, and also has 3 x RCA outs (2 audio, 1 video), which I've used for a few gigs.
    I also like the look of those Alesis iMultimix racks and mixers, with an integrated iPod dock and an 8+ channel mixer built-in. God Module use one of these (I'm 90% sure), and sounded great.
    So yeah, nothing against iPod backings here :) But certainly not just a minijack out from the headphone jack D:

    Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.