Yeah I decided on improving my signal chain. The KSP8 is really the only effects processor I actually need at the moment anyhow. I do also have an Emperical Labs Distressor i've had for about two years now that gets used on basically fucking everything.
Industrial Music forum » Music tech forum
any point to hardware reverbs?
(37 posts)-
KryonikMessiah23
offlinememberPosted 2 years ago # -
@ Alternative Electronics
It's less an analog reverb box, more a piece of black alchemy. :)
There is a warmth and a sense of 'out of controlness' that you can get from tape delay that you can't really get from anything else. A lot of the old dub producers treated it as an instrument in it's own right...'playing' the effects live was considered part of the art.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_RE-201
I think the biggest negative about working 'in the box' is the user interface you use to interact with the music. There isn't the sense of performance, of interaction, that you get from a piece of hardware or a real instrument. I mean hell, I've heard of producers who can't even play an instrument these days. It's all about pushing a mouse around, squares on a quantized grid. It's essentially soulless. To me, music should have some dirt in it, some life, something that makes it real. I've purposefully left glitches in mixes, little errors, pops from the computer...just something chaotic.
So people were asking about hardware. It's the little things, the grit, the warmth, the slight unpredictabilities, the user interfaces that make you want to grab them and interact that make them worthwhile. The aim of old equipment producers was to reduce noise, when we entered the digital world we eliminated it, then we realised the recordings were cold, sterile, lifeless, dull facsimiles of reality, we liked the imperfections, even if they were so subtle as to be barely noticed we noticed when they weren't there.
I was just reading an interview with Michael Brauer, the mix engineer, and he hits it on the head. Some things are better in the box, de-essing, some limiting, perfect recall. But things like compression, distortion, preamps, mixers, they are better in the analogue world.
The bottom line is, does it sound good? Do I like/enjoy using this piece of equipment? Do I produce better work with it? Whatever it may be, hardware or software, if you enjoy using it, if it sounds good, it is good.
Posted 2 years ago # -
soillodge
offlineTech ModeratorHave to agree with Modulate about the black alchemy :). Unless you have actually spent time with an authentic tape delay machine you will not understand. There is much to be learned from hardware equipment and how it actually modifies your sound, not the virtual equivalent that just performs mathematical algorithms to simulate the effect.
`michael
Posted 2 years ago # -
just some small bits of info. here.
The reverb Algorithms in a M5000 are VERY old.
The reverb algorithms in a M3000 are much never. (and WAY better sounding)
The reverb algorithms in a M-One (old or XL) are ALL derived from M3000, Reverb 4000, System 6000.The M-One simply have WAY less parameters to edit. but the reverbs are the same as System 6000, if i remember correctly, the old M5000 algorithms were added aswell, but to a lot lesser extent than the newer better sounding ones.
M5000 are unsupported for many many years, was it 10 years ago that TC decided not even to repair old M5000's. So, basicly, it's the "baddest" sounding TC reverb of them all. And it's also prone to memory errors as it gets older. Memory errors cause small crackles in the reverb tail.
;-)
Posted 2 years ago # -
@DrA-Funz: We have an M-One, an M3000, 2 M5000X and also the VSS3 for the Powercore....well the 6000 really sounds very nice....but still we love the 5000X better...cannot tell you why...but compared to the M-One or the M3000 they add this "musicality" to it...hard to tell what it is...but for us the sound is fuller than with the 3000....we mainly use the 3000 or the m-one for live...depending on the setup....
Posted 2 years ago # -
I do understand that you have "this thing" for the M5k ;-)
Maybe the reason you find it more musical, is that it's not that precise, and if you have the old DA's, then it's also noisy. that could be a contributing factor to the fact that it blends more easily.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The old Lexicon units are really noisy too and yes, there is something to be said for lower quality DA chips. The old Akai MPC was only 12bit but that added a real grit to the sound that really suited the application it was used for, mostly in hip-hop programming. The DX7 too had a kind of gritty sound that people seemed to like. And again, many old pieces of kit were quite noisy. A lot of plug-ins are including noise and analogue buttons to throw some noise into the mix. I think having a certain level of background noise softens and blends the mix together making it sound subjectively warmer. A totally clean digital path, all music, no artifacts, can actually sound very cold and clinical. But as Yade said, certain pieces of kit have an indefinable musicality to them. It's hard to say what, maybe a solidity of sound, an excitement, air, noise, grit, esoteric terms that mean these pieces of kit add a certain 'something' to the mix. I've heard generic dynamic vocal mics through good preamps into a good desk, through an LA2a with an old Lexicon ambient verb (PCM91 iirc) and whatever it was, there was a magic there. That sheen, that gloss that you get from high end equipment. Smooth, rich, whatever it was these pieces of kit were adding 'something' to the sound that made it sound great and I think that quality is something we are only just starting to develop with 'in the box' mixing.
Individually each piece of kit probably only makes a small difference, but along a signal chain, those effects combine to give the magic.
Posted 2 years ago # -
KryonikMessiah23
offlinememberLet's just say I just changed my tune on reverb.
Bought a Lexicon PCM 96.
One word comes to mind.
Amazing.
Edit: Seeing as I don't like to say something without backing it up:
http://www.tindeck.com/listen/fpyt
Dry virus, with a liiiitle bit of delay, through a hall with the mix around....45%. Recorded into Live via a Presonus Firestudio and a Mackie Onyx.
I'll be doing more examples if anyone's interested. This thing just fucking MADE my sound SO MUCH BETTER.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@DRA-Funz: a friend of mine just built a new Studio....he bought 3 System 6000, 5 Lexikon 960L and 10 M5000 :-)...
Posted 2 years ago # -
wormsoftheearth
offlineMemberso, to come back to this topic after a couple months, I am really wanting to write some dark ambient and I want to use a lot of hardware. What hardware verbs do people suggest? but please, no 3000$ lexicons. What do people think of something like the lexicon MX400 that has USB and also other effects? Or what about analog spring verbs or something like Veroma analog retroverb. Man, there are so many out there! But I'm looking for something really dark and gritty...like old raison, desiderii, etc
Posted 1 year ago # -
i think there are a few of the older lexicon units that are still praised for their great sound.. and they can be had at very reasonable prices. gearslutz.com has some threads about this very subject that i found helpful
Posted 1 year ago # -
wormsoftheearth
offlineMemberwhat is "reasonable"? I was looking at some older lexicon PCMs on ebay, but most were still $800-1200 which is significantly more than I'd like to spend for an old box that just does reverb and is hard to control. the lower end stuff like Lexicon MX300/400, TC M-One XL etc, all get extremely mixed reviews
Posted 1 year ago # -
you should be able to find something like a pcm 70 or 81 for around $700.
there is also the Kurzweil Rumour which is (i think) the reverb side of the KSP8. Kryonikmessiah has a KSP8 so he could tell you how good the reverb is. I think you can get a Rumour for around 500 or 600.
i think you pay for quality converters in nice FX boxes... which is why after all these years a 480L still sounds better than any plugin that isn't also coupled with expensive ad/da converters
Posted 1 year ago # -
KryonikMessiah23
offlinememberTsarik's right. The Mangler and Rumor are basically the algos from the KSP8 in two different boxes.
Oddly enough it's cheaper to get those seperately than the KSP8 but you don't get the nifty controller for it.
Great reverbs and everything else. I only bought the PCM because I wanted a Lexicon and I just like having gear in general. Coincidentally, I also post on Gearslutz.
Posted 1 year ago # -
@Yade:
WTF?
Seriously, what does he need like 34+ stereo reverbs for?
I know that when they mixed the sound for "the two towers" & "return of the king", they used 3 x system 6000, and 1 or 2 other TC reverbs. and afaik, their mix was well over 128 channels... (for the first movie they both used Lexicon and TC, the next wto was exclusively TC)
(the called TC directly, to get the 2nd. and 3rd. System 6000 sent express, so we had to work a few hours overtime that day, to prepare the systems)
Posted 1 year ago # -
"
I just like having gear in general. Coincidentally, I also post on Gearslutz."LOL :)
Seriously though GS can DIAF AFAIC.. Surely it's the only place one the internet where people who own Andromedas pick fights with other Andromeda-owners over what they feel its best features are, rather than just be happy with their mega-synths. Not to mention the speaker-size pissing contests...
And I saw another thread there yesterday from a guy selling his studio on eBay. Opens with "I don't make much music these days, I've been more of a collector/curator". Yep, fits right in on GS...Posted 1 year ago # -
KryonikMessiah23
offlinememberYeah I try to ignore that shit. Tech advice from people who don't use their killer gear to make music is kind of pointless.
Posted 1 year ago #
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