And what about "pro-produced" cdrs as well? What difference does that make?

Seraphik,

Your question makes a lot of sense.

If a band is about to spend a lot of money on pressing 500+ real CD's there is a lot more chance that they do their best while composing, recording, producing and mastering. Because they have a lot more too lose if they don't do their very best. So the diffrence is not so much the plastic itself. So I would say the real CD's are a better choise most of the time.

The CDR's are a nice dj promo or pre release promo, but if the CDR is made from a MASTER DISC of any well produced master dics, and burnt via a high grade burner with the highest bit resolution, then its as good as any glass master, it all starts with the source master disc.

I agree with Apskaft, CDdrs often (not always, mind) seem not only rushed in presentation but in the entire concept. I know that for some bands/projects image is not as important and sometimes with cdrs I feel that it's a conscious decision to step away from any preconceived notions that an album cover may give but overall, I'm not a fan.

Rivetmike

CDRs? May as well pay for a download album. Not a fan either.

we did a CD-R release of a single/ep thing, and pushed it to DJ's. even sold some at shows and at our website. but when we did the "product" lp, we did that as an actual packaged disc for sales reasons. CD-Rs are fine as promo, but not such a great sales item.

don't know how many of you are into the type of experimental stuff that Soleilmoon carries, but i'm noticing a huge increase in CD-R albums through their store...kinda nuts.

Alot of good points and what I wanted to hear! Batterycage's comment about Soleilmoon bands for example, is exactly the idea that prompted me to ask this question.

As Im coming across more dark ambient releases I enjoy, Im finding alot of labels/bands are limiting the releases to small numbers and releasing them as Cdr releases.

For example, Loki Foundation, which have alot of good releases, have reissued Herbst9 "Eta Carinae" as a Cdr. The original copy is a factory press. Other newer or smaller bands such as Ghosts of Breslau, Triarii, etc have their debut release as a Cdr.

I enjoy having nice artwork, etc but I know its sometimes unaffordable for a new band. And to a degree, as I said, I dont mind paying money for a Cdr if its the only way I can have an "original" release with the artwork, etc. But I want to make sure Im getting the quality for what Im paying for. In other words, if I shell out almost $20.00 to have a Cdr sent to me from Europe, I'd like to think the Cdr is on quality as me having spent $20.00 on a regular Dependent or Metropolis pressed CD. Thats what I was getting at ;)

As long as the music is good, I don't really care.

personally i don't mind a more budget oriented cdr release if its good.
things sold at shows by bands, preview releases and such are okay as a cdr release.
the sound quality isn't an issue as it can be done correctly on cdr or on a real pressing from a glass master and the reverse is true too. i have bought poorly mastered pressed cds and bad cdr releases as well.

the real issue i have for a cdr release is the fragility of the cdr vs. pressed.
physically a cdr has a thin foil layer on the top of the disc and if it gets scratched you're hosed. with a pressed cd the foil is in the middle and sandwiched between 2 pieces of plastic. a scratch won't kill it unless it's really large or really deep.
if the cdr is near the same price as a full pressing then i won't go for it. it would need to reflect it's smaller budget origins in its final price.

I think everyone is slightly cheesed a bit when they turn a cd over and see that its green bottomed. People think that when they order a bulk of cds for their ban from say cafepress, guitar center, etc that they are getting professional made dupes. When in fact, its not the best instert printing and green bottom cdrs.

But its all about finances...why pay $2000 or so for a professional cd release if youre not sure youll be able to sell em. A friend of mine paid some good money to have a really kick ass professional cd made, that is even carried through metropolis. So ya can go all out on self releases. Being someone who doesnt see labels as an important validation, self releases are the way to go cdr or professionally done.

It's all in the quality-- if you pay for a disc to be mastered and professionally duplicated (ie not burned on your computer at home) with actual printing on the cd (opposed from a sticker or stamped label) then I don't see the big deal.

I think CDRs are in the DIY spirit that's a big part of industrial to me. If the music's good and the all-around packaging is good then I have no problem with it. I'm not gonna hold it against someone for not blowing a couple grand for putting out their music. I've self-released replicated (ie "real" cds) and CDRs and had them all professionally mastered and put together. Most people probably can't even really tell them apart too easily if done right. Not that an artist shouldn't be upfront about a CDR release-- I put out the first Caustic EP like that and said it was a CDR. Sold 'em cheap (another luxury of not having to drop a zillion bucks on a "real" CD) and it's gotten the word out out on my music. I sold them out, too.

My NEXT release, if I do it myself, WILL be a "real" CD, but that's only because I want major distributors to pick it up and sell it, something that most distro won't do for a CDR, good or not.

People who look down on CDRs are generally, IMHO, people who either have never put up the money or tried to sell 500 CDs in a tough market or people who are bitter because they DID blow all the money and feel stupid for doing so cuz they LOST a lot on it. It's kind of elitist to hate on someone for being frugal. I just want good music, in whatever format.

Regardless of the quality of the CDR (recording or of the actual physical media), they tend not to hold up the same as pressed discs. The could sit on your shelf for 100 years and have no problem, or they could sit there for a year and have the data degredate to a point that the disc is useless (or atleast part of it). As a consumer, I prefer pressed CD's. I understand that not everyone has the funds to do that or what ever, but if you cant believe in your music enough to have it pressed, then why should I believe in it enough to pay for it?

Xeno,

why pay $2000 or so for a professional cd release if youre not sure youll be able to sell em

Why not make sure you make a very good album if you are to spend "$2000 or so" on it? Or else you may not be able to sell them all. Or even better, why not try and be signed to a good record label who knows how to sell them all? You see, the labels are there to sort out the not good enough bands and to push the good enough bands to always do their very best.

@Aps- I think we all know that the labels aren't always great at sorting out "good enough bands";)

@Puppy- Agreed. I don't think every CD should be put out in CDR by any means, but for an up and coming project I understand it more than if say VNV did it. Bands like Metallica (as an example) blew up from just putting out self-made tapes of their stuff. CDRs are easy to put out, cheap to make, and can help spread word to people who aren't as internet savvy as we all are. I made my EP on CDR with the purpose of people (hopefully) enjoying it, copying it, and passing it along. People are gonna do that with pressed CDs as well (and that's a whole other argument) but for my purposes for promoting and getting new fans the CDR worked great.

It's all in what you're looking for, of course. I don't think a band trying to be frugal and putting out CDRs doesn't believe in their music-- it's daunting enough of a process to let people you don't know hear yer stuff-- but I do think it's a step that helps smaller bands get their names out there without label support.

@Aps

" You see, the labels are there to sort out the not good enough bands and to push the good enough bands to always do their very best. "

What?!?!? That's crazy talk! There are tons of brilliant unsigned performers. On the other hand there are also tons of crap acts with label support. All subjective of course. BUT, Label=Quality? I'll never be sold on that notion.

In regards to CDR's. If it's reasonable priced I don't mind. The problem seems to be shelf life though. Of the CDR's I have bought over the years, a number of them have suffered some sort of disc rot and are now unplayable despite the fact that they are completely scratch free.

I put up $850 of my cash to press 500 cds so that I could send them to stores and such and feel good about the end consumer getting what they paid for.

I have 300 of them still sitting in boxes in my home.

Because of this, I have stressed myself out trying to figure out if I will press cds in the future or just go the cdr route. It stinks but the truth is the average consumer expects a pressed cd. It is hard as a musician to feel "legit" without one.

I love both formats. I have a lot of CD-R releases that I really love. Just because it's "pressed" doesn't mean it's superior. It all comes down to the music in the end. It's either good or bad. the color of the plastic isn't going to change that fact. I do feel the price should reflect the format though. A CD-R release should be priced lower than a pressed CD for sure.

eurotic,

I think we all know that the labels aren't always great at sorting out "good enough bands"

True. But they have to think before they spend thier money, and that puts pressure on the bands. Now, not all labels are good at what they do. But that is another story.

t.o.t.s.,

You scream so much I will not answer your questions. (But why do I get the feeling you are in an unsigned band?)

@Aps

"You scream so much I will not answer your questions."

Scream? I wasn't meaning to... the exclamations were just for fun. Everything is "crazy talk" when I'm talking to people. Sometimes I forget I chatting with people that haven't met me in real life :). Certainly wasn't meant to offend.

"(But why do I get the feeling you are in an unsigned band?)"

So true! :) But it's been like that for 14 some years. It hardly matters to me at this point.

However, I was serious about tons of fantastic unsigned acts though. There's some really great suf out there.

I've thought about this a lot actually!

I think the bottomline is economics, I mean for the price of one "replicated" release (audio cd) a label can release 10x on cdr (duplicated) because there are manufacturing companies that let you make "1", yes "one" full color tray & insert, barcoded cdr. you can literally make cdrs on demand, to commit to one release, $1500 - $2000 for one "replicated" CD release...can be a gamble, even if it is good.... well it's something to think about

DYI is a strong force

I don't really believe that labels sort out good from bad

But the thing i do feel strong about is the pricing... I think people deserve a "real" cd for the price, or something extra, especially considering the "collector" aspect of the scene. If you ask someone to spend $15 or more for a release it really should be worth it

I dont think anyone ever said, especially me, that the music is NOT what matters!! It is because the music DOES matter that *I* personally, want to make sure 10 or so years from now, my Cdr release of (Insert band here) is not destroyed, ruined, worn down, etc.

Hence, why I am leary of Cdr vs regular audio discs. Also, I am a complete audiophile: I shelled out a shitload for my stereo system. I want the best qualitywise I can buy when it comes to music. I dont mind personally paying a few extra dollars for a release if I know its going to sound crystal clear.

I absolutely love it when bands reissue CDs that are remastered or tweeked around a bit more so they sound smoother (ie. FLA - Caustic Group remastered reissue).

Some obvious perfect examples: Skinny Puppy - Rabies original vs reissue, Ministry - Singles Collection vs reissue, etc. It makes a huge difference and you can hear more sounds going on, clearer/cleaner music, etc.

So thats why I wonder about Cdrs. I know some new bands just do not have the funds to get a CD pressed. So they can only distribute their music via Cdrs. This seems to be more of the case with Dark Ambient bands then with EBM/Electro stuff. And lately, Ive been picking up a good deal of dark ambient stuff that are all Cdrs (Limited releases, first releases, etc). Its just a bit frustrating I guess..

@apskhaft:"You see, the labels are there to sort out the not good enough bands and to push the good enough bands to always do their very best."<<<

ohhhkay...

@scarchemik:"I put up $850 of my cash to press 500 cds so that I could send them to stores and such and feel good about the end consumer getting what they paid for.

I have 300 of them still sitting in boxes in my home."<<<

Again, why I can see why someone would do a small run of professional looking cdrs.

Then again Im a weirdo...even if I had professionally released cds, I would still encourage peopel to download the music off my site or pirate/spread/p2p my stuff. There are a good amount of people who will buy a cd even if most the tracks are online, just to have it and support. A released cd should have of course professionally mastered versions of the free releases and exclusive songs and remixes I think. I also dont believe in labels:) 100% of the money going to the band be it self releasing or $1 a song things is the future for a portion of future artists.

..nahhhh...a good label can offer you a lot of oportunities you can´t get on your own. if a label works good and professional it´s worth the money. even the guys who run their own music on their own label have a lot of relations and contracts with distributors, promoters... joining forces is good and is not for free.

@xeno- Believe me, if you sink a few grand into a CD you do NOT want everyone pirating the music. A CDR is a smaller loss so that's more acceptable, but having put out a few discs and did my best to promote them I REALLY didn't wanna lose money on 'em:)

And to answer some other people-- if you're charging $15 for a CDR then yes that's ridiculous. One of the best reasons TO do CDRs is that they can be sold much cheaper. Sure, a shorter shelf-life as well, but a better deal to let people unfamiliar with your work to take a chance on it if it's under $10.

@eurotic

I agree about the price being probably the largest factor. $15 for a CD-R? You wont get that from me, I don't care how limited it is. $10 for a CD-R? If I really like your stuff. $5 for a CD-R seems about right if I have never heard the band or have only heard very little. Lets face it, I am happy to support a band, but if they are asking too much for it, I can always download it and check it out that way.

exactly. We're doing an Endif/Caustic split release with 12 tracks and I think it'll be $8. I couldn't see it as any more than that, and we're getting it professionally mastered, duplicated and printed and will probably be tossing in stickers and stuff too to make it worth it. Plus the music kicks ass;)

And I'd NEVER spend $15 for a CDR. That'd be ridiculous, so I'm totally with you on that.

$8 sounds like it would be worth it :)

4 original tracks each plus we each remixed one of each other's PLUS a pal of ours did a remix of another track of each of ours.

It'll be awesome. I'll pimp it after we get the art back from the designer and all the duplication done.:)

@eurotic:"Believe me, if you sink a few grand into a CD you do NOT want everyone pirating the music. A CDR is a smaller loss so that's more acceptable, but having put out a few discs and did my best to promote them I REALLY didn't wanna lose money on 'em:)"<<<

I don't even really have a couple hundred, let alone a couple thousand...but in another post, I like what yua said about including stickers and goodies. I myself only care about as many people as possible hearing my stuff. I want people from Arkansas to Indonesia to bum frell Egypt to be able to download most my tracks and spread the word. I think we are in an era where a label isnt the be all end all. I mean, look at Kid606...he wasnt on a label for a long time yet he was able to get the word out. And Kompressor, known for funny lyrics than actual listenable music is widely known sans a label.

And then of course, there is the target promotion factor. I'm taking a major initiative to promote to the gamer/anime/geek/comic/webcomic/indie fan online soon. I think if you believe in what youre doing enough, and think you have something that can catch on, then it's your duty to try and get it out to as wide an avenue as possible. You think anys cene label is going to target or pormote much outside the little goth industrial scene?

And then people wonder why so many people just download cd's....

people download to get it for free.

pople buy cd's cause they want to own the release.

part of that ownership is the quality of the media you released.
sleeve, graphics, disc artwork, extras in packaging etc... only add to the music on the disc in a minor way. however if i have a cdr and i scratch it, bye bye cdr. not the same with a pressed cd. it really boils down to pricing of each. face it $17.99 is too much for a cd if it's pressed or not. the reatil chains are wondering why their shrinking and wal mart which demands cheaper discs from labels to sell cheaper has risen to the number one retailer of discs.

cds have risen in price when the actual cost to manufacter them has dropped since their inception. labels are too greedy. instead of trying to hold a price point they raised the price beyond what the retail market was willing to pay. downloads have nothing to do with cd sales. last quarter the riaa reported a large growth in sales after dropping prices for wal mart and to compete with i-tunes and such. after claiming downloads were hurting their business a simple price cut proved their claims to be crap.

downloaders don't really impact the market place, cd price does.
if you can release on cdr and get it out the door for under $7.00 and still profit from it you'll make more than if you tried to sell it as a pressed disc at $14.99. simply due to more people willing to try your music for the lower price.

Hmmm, so are you guys classing duplicated CDrs, with printing direct to a silver disc and colour, glossy booklets in the "CDR" class? Or would you think of this as a pressed CD (even though it wasn't replicated from a glass master)?
I'm planning on releasing a duplicated EP of a new project of mine (with a run of 200) in the next few weeks, with printing direct to a silver disc and a colour printed booklet, plus a barcode. To the naked eye, I daresay it would look like a replicated CD release. Would anyone think less of a release that was made this way as opposed to a replicated run of 500+? Also, this still equates to $3.40AUD per disc, so it could be sold for very little.

I hate to say this, but even if the most professional booklet printing, cool graphics, and heat image burn onto a cd occurs...if I look at th ebottom of a disc and I see green; well then its no tmuch cooler than if someone scribbled ink on a memorex cdr. time and quality put into a cdr release makes it look more appealiong, but shouldnt be sold for more than $5, if not completely given away for promotion or label shopping.

The fact remains that will always be a segment who will buy your cd, even if every song is available online. I dont think a lot of people realize that. People can argue and argue til they are purple in the face; but nothing can conflict with the reality that as of now at least half of a band's fans got their release as a download...or just have certain songs. Ya can blame whoever all ya want, but it's as much a fact as the sun will rise. Again, if every person in the world who says they like VNV bought their new cd, they would be doing major label sales.

My advice for a band is to provide something even a littl eunique, promote outside...maybe way outside the little goth industrial scene, and focus on making music that you enjoy. When it becoems a chore like anything, then it aint worth it. And cdrs are cdrs no matter how fancy they are dressed...and shouldnt be sold for much money. The idea of a cdr release is intended to have some sort of product available wide. No wonder certain bands release whole labums or EPs for free.

If you want to be taken seriously, don't release on a CDR.

Nah, if you want to be taken seriously, release good music. Shit is shit, regardless of what type of plastic it's pressed on.

what gunhed said plus

too many "pro" releases sounding like crap recently.
too many labels releasing anything they can to try to find a sleeper band that sells.
no marketing other than a few "scene" mags and online marketing = limited audience that can only shrink not grow.

and the worst thing...
"supporting the scene" i have heard this lame statement too many times of late.
if you are "supporting the scene" with a purchase you are not supporting the scene.
this phrase means "i went to a show/bought a cd i didn't like but thought i needed to to get more of the stuff i do like to arrive".

the more stuff you don't really want that you buy instead of just buying only what you do want leads to a watered down "scene" with crap that stays afloat instead of sinking into oblivion like it should nd no longer being a detrement to the "scene". too many bands have 20 people show up just cause someone is supporting the "scene". granted a show with 20 people can mean other things like poor promotion or a small local scene. but if you play san francisco and 20 people show up you can figure something is up with your ability to draw a crowd. some bands are better as a studio project, like haujobb or mentallo and the fixer. these guys release killer cds but it's (to quote xeno) "crickets and tumbleweeds" at a live show.

if you find yourself going to a show to "support the scene" and not cause you like the band at all or think the show will be any good then don't go. save your cash for the bands you think deserve your cash. this will cause lackluster performers to try harder or release studio work only. in turn this improves "the scene" and maybee more people will be willing to see a better performance that are outside the "scene".

CDR = DIY

from what I've found out (so far) is that the major internet distros will not stock cdr productions even if the packaging is almost identical (barcoded,sharp color, silkscreen disc) so there has got to be a reason why cdrs are not accepted in addition to shorter shelf-life of the media

and when you think about, even lame mp3s are considered more of a "pro release" than cdrs! ala iTune

and so it seems that if you're not going to release an industry glass mastered standard cd, you might as well just release your album 100% digital

it would cool if a indie distributor, or mailorder guy could comment on stocking cdrs

prob is: itunes will not carry it unless it's on a distributor. For indie musicians and some small label this = cdbaby. But cdbaby will let you release cdrs- I just checked on this.


I think it's good that the internet distros won't stock them and the mags won't review them for the most part. It keeps those artists/labels that are willing to make the dive and really believe in something the opp't to work hard and not be blown over by people that do not take their music as seriously.


There should be a tax on the sale of blank cdrs that funnels money back to the labels and artists.

Hey, if you want to ignore a lot of good music because of what type of plastic it's pressed on that's up to you. But to say musicians don't take their music serioulsy because they don't have a few grand to spend on pressing a CD is absurd. ESPECIALLY in a scene as small as ours. I thought this was about DIY? Wasn't that what this scene was founded on? Or are we all just waiting for the top labels to "professionally press" the next disposable dance record that everyone will listen to for a few months and move onto the next disposable dance record. When you have to spend thousands of dollars on pressing a cd labels are more reluctant on taking chances with a release and will continue to release the same old thing, because they know it will sell. That's helps nobody and makes the scene stagnant. Just look at what's happening now with the whole "Hellelektro" thing.

As for mags not reviewing them. I'm not sure what mags you're referring to. The ones I read review CD-R's. Unless you're talking about big publications in which case they don't cover the majority of the releases in our scene anyways, so they don't matter.

I've heard that the main reason why cdrs are not accepted by big distro is because the process is not 100% without error - which i'm sure everyone has experienced with their home computer at least once

the mp3 comment was great!

cdr release almost needs a disclaimer, but a compressed version of the same song, well that's perfectly pro...gimme a break, pleeeeeze

Yeah, because "pressed cds" never have errors. hahaha. Yeah, right. I must have just imagined returning Haujobb's "Polarity" because of pops and skips then? And no, it wasn't because of a scratch on the cd. It was because of a mistake in the production of the disc. Thankfully, Metro was kind enough to replace the CD. Metro Jim is the man, btw. :)

it would be cool if a distro guy could comment on this, maybe there's some specific reason

CD's are the way to go...
CD-R releases are too hard of a sell and always get complaints from customers..I been retailing for 10 years and alot of experience in this field...so thats why I tell bands to do it right or don't think you will get fgood distro at all..meaning...put some money where your mouth is($1000) and press cd's if your stuff is THAT GOOD!

that's the problem. a lot of the stuff being pressed these days isn't that great. A lot of clone bands using the same sounds, techniques, vocal styles, etc. Some labels are getting lazy and are maybe afraid to give something different a shot because they have to invest thousands of dollars into it. So if it doesn't sound like the latest trend they think people won't buy it. CD-Rs can be sold at a lower price, the band has more control over their product and don't have to worry about satisfying a label head (not enough dance mixes, dance oriented tracks on a cd, etc..) Not everyone has thousands of dollars laying around to throw at a release. Does that mean they don't care about their music? Of course not. there's TONS of great artists out there releasing music on net labels, CD-R Labels, etc.. Are you saying that because a band like Bitcrush releases an album on En:Peg Digital instead of pressing their CD's that they don't care about their music? That's pretty ridiculous. Bottom line, if it's good, support it, no matter what format it's on. Music is about more than what type of plastic it's pressed onto. At least I would hope to think so.

yah, and cd-rs seem to have alot of problems in cd players, in pro cd players like I have at KUNM...and it makes my show all messy when cd's are all stopping and skipping around cause its a CD-R which tend to do that more.
way more in fact....I am always nervous when playing a cd-r release that its gonna fuck up while I am 100 yards down the hall taking a piss..

I think it does matter what format its on.....if you don't have money to release your stuff..then save up..thats what we all do....and its the way it should be.,.CD-r releases look cheezy..the covers are all color copies or these companies that try to make em look like real cd's...

the customers DO NOT LIKE THEM thats the bottom line, dude...I don't like getting ragged on by customers who think I am duping someones cd...
thats the problem..society and youth caused it..too much burning cd's illegally for friends(people tell me how they do this to my own releases and turn friends onto it...without thinking this is illegal and hurts us saleswise)...
They just don't compare in quality to the real thing..thats what I am saying..
its fine for hobbyists and beginners and demos, but thats about it...not to sell...
done.

thanks for listening....

Well, I have plenty of CD-Rs and none of them skip. So if done properly then it shouldn't be a problem. Especially if you take care of your cds. i'm not saying EVERYTHING should be released on CDR, I'm saying that if you dismiss a band because they release music on CDR or say they're not as worthy of a listen because some other band released their cd on a pressed cd that's just silly. Then again, it doesn't really matter. Cuz in another 10 years the CD format will most likely be phased out (in favor of ipods and other digital players) and this discussion will not even matter. hehe.

it won't be phased out...not if we can help it..:-)
we don't follow all the trends here, and alot of us will keep the Cd companies going...

"in pro cd players like I have at KUNM...and it makes my show all messy when cd's are all stopping and skipping around cause its a CD-R which tend to do that more..."

I can second the problem in hi-end pro CD players. I engineer at a NY radio station and CD-R's, regardless of where they've come from continually give me problems. A great deal of material we recieve is immediately canned due to this. No one at a broadcast station has the time to put stuff into a computer and rip it onto a server so it can play OK. As a result, atleast at our station, it just doesn't get any air time.

Weird.. well, like I said. I've never had a problem with any of the CD-R's I've received here at Wet-Works. I guess it just depends on the people making them.

BTW Gunhed, I just checked out your site. It looks great... somehow I've managed to miss it up until now!

Hey thanks a lot. I try not to talk about here since this is Side-Line and all. hehe. Glad you liked it.

What I've noticed with CD-Rs is that they scratch very easily (like listed above in the conversation), and I'm always disappointed when I buy from a label and spend the $$$ and turn the disc over to see that damn blueish hue. It pissed me off to no end when I bought BIAS' Peak software and saw that it was CD-R (different argument though).

Hypothetically speaking though - let's say that Sasha is playing your hometown in two weeks. Plenty of raver kids to get interested in your music! I don't know about you, but I'm not giving them a silverback disc for free. You can't hide them on your person very well either if the security guys are dicks. A CD-R in those little paper slips, with 3 songs on it or so is easily mass-burned and hidden in your waist. Viola.

If a label is selling CD-R's it should be stated CLEARLY that's what you'll be getting. If a label says it's pressed then sends you a CD-R that's different.

Well, I have no problems if a band wants to do sort of what Necro Facility did and send out 3 track promos so people can hear what the band sounds like. They didnt use a Cdr I dont think, but even if they did, I wouldnt have a problem with that. You're just getting a teaser for what the band sounds like. And thats fine. (Although the second disc in the limited edition release is simply a blank Cdr)

However, when I browse a catalogue, and come across a new band I never heard before, and they have a release out that sounds worth picking up and then I found out its a Cdr, its just annoying. This seems to be, as I said, commonplace with the dark ambient bands.

Now on the one hand, its been discussed that the band may be starting off and not having enough funds to get a disc pressed properly so they introduce themselves with a Cdr for their first release. Thats fine as well but I'd hope eventually the Cdr would get "released" as a normal CD once the band makes headway.

Why would a band that has been established still release Cdrs? For example, the newest A Challenge of Honour title is a Cdr. Hes put out a ton of CD and record releases..why a Cdr now? I dont see whats "cool" about it and with myself listening to CDs over and over, the Cdr is bound to be scratched.

I get told "Just make a copy of your Cdr to protect the original Cdr" but come on! Im buying music and I just want to listen to it; not have a goddamn record producing plant in my house backing items up because a band just didnt release a normal CD. ;p

Granted, in most cases (Though not all!) the Cdr releases are cheaper then the CD releases by a few dollars. Sometimes by a good deal, other times only by $2.00 or so. I think when you get a Cdr, you're lacking the quality, the artwork, and the time and effort that are put into normal CD releases. Which for a fan/consumer, can simply be frustrating.

and there's times when you get a pressed cd that has horrible artwork and cheap production, too. Which is worse? hehe.

its way more common with unsigned bands doing cd-rs....to put it bluntly..
EVERYONE HAS A PROJECT NOW!!!
Most of them will release stuff on cd-r, cause its easy and cheap...thats the main reason..

and the bands and labels that at least put their money where their mouth is, and promote the cd's as well are working harder and paying more...so they deserve more.

They deserve more what? You can spend thousands of dollars on pressed cds and still release crap. Just because you have the money to release a pressed cd doesn't mean your stuff is any good. People releasing good music deserve more, period. You can wrap shit up in diamonds and jewels, it's still just shit.

btw, that wasn't directed at any band or label.. just making a general statement.

I agree that theres alot of shit being releasd..mainly on mainstream labels though..as far as this scene goes, I find most of the crappy releases are on cd-r and self done and they sound like beginners imitating Suicide Commando or VNV or Converter....we all know that?

I don't hear so much "bad shit" on the main labels in the scene...or stuff that should have "never seen the plastic of day"....with few exceptions.Sometimes a label will release a new band that just doesn't get in good with the peeps...but I haven't heard too much HIDEOUS shit like I have on cd-r from demo bands just starting out...ANYONE can make a CD-R and send it out..costs maybe a couple bucks....as opposed to thousands for a pressed disc...so usually the bands that put in more time and effort and pay for their efforts are usually sounding better in my opinion...

Yeah, cuz there's no bands being pressed to cd right now that sound like "beginners imitating suicide commando." hehehe. and I'm not talking about DEMO CD-R's. I'm talking about labels (dedicated labels) that release CD-R albums.

yeah, I did get off the track there...those demo's scare me sometimes...
I think it all comes down to what the customers wants and accepts...I think the point made by"Seraphik" was also really good.
cheers..

Ok, so bands put out regular CDs who just suck. Thats not the issue or point of my original thread here ;p Anyone with access to the internet or a local record store thats willing to let you hear CDs, should be able to hear what a band sounds like before purchasing the CD. If you truly look hard enough for sound samples, you will find them. very very very rarely do I hear about a band and cannot find ANY sound samples or hear the CD in a store. Extremely rare.

Regardless if a band sucks or not, that argument is offtopic to the discussion of a band releasing a CD or a Cdr.

Seraphik: I know a guy that backs up all his PRESSED cds onto CD-R for fear of them being scratched. LOL I have CD-R's from labels like Ad Noiseam and Mechanoise Labs I play all the time and have never had a problem with. Sound just as good now as they did when I got them. I guess it comes down to how well you take care of your disc.

Not really off topic.. Because the preception is that if a band releases a CD-R instead of a pressed CD that in some way that makes them inferior or "not as talented." Which isn't true.

@Gunhed

In no way have I anywhere said that a Cdr or CD presentation makes the band less talented. How ANYONE could compare a bands talent via how they release their CD is one of the absolute outlandish theories Ive ever heard.

My argument is about sound quality, package quality, and longevity of a CD versus a Cdr release. The actual disc and prostestic appearence of the overall package which a paying consumer is getting, and also the life of the CD/Cdr (Can both be played 10 years from now or will one have scratched, deteriorated and become ruined?), and most importantly, the sound quality of a CD/Cdr (Will a CD press have clearer and cleaner sounds that would be missed on a Cdr release? Will the sound become "muffled" or not as clean on a Cdr?).

Hence why Im saying a band's talent is irrelevant to the quality and production put into a CD or Cdr. ;p

Like I said, I've had CDR's for YEARS and no problem. I've also listened to pressed CD's that had terrible production (example: The release of x**'s album "Forgiven" on Black Flames. Thank god Static Sky re-released it). So if a label releasing PRESSED cd's puts out something that technically sounds horrible, should they tell the consumer (We didn't give a shit about the production of this album but it's pressed so you'll think you're getting something better)? If you put in the production time, the release should sound great no matter what type of plastic it's released on. As for presentation, that's a matter of opinion.. I've recevied some very creative CD-R's that were extremely unique. I've also received some pressed cds that look like a 3rd grader made them with paint shop pro. if you put in the effort and time to make a good release, it shouldn't matter what format it's on.

Maybe this spec data will make things more clear for you.

http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/primer/losses.htm

The CDs you buy in a store are pressed from a mold. CD-Rs are etched with a laser. As a result, they're less tolerant of temperature and sunlight, and
don't last as long. (But they still last a long time.)

Okay, that's nice.. but if the original source sounds like crap it doesn't matter. In theory, the x** album should sound FANTASTIC over anything I have on CD-R. LOL

@Krusafix- yeah..good info bro...for sure..thanks.

and I'm not trying to point a finger at x**.. the new "re-release" sounds 100 times better ;)

Im a big fan of technical data specfication, at the end of the day, it all comes down to the configuration of the studio hardware, pressing plant hardware or pc hardware making the master and then transfering it.

Then you have the 1001 variations from pro grade cd-r down to the non branded cd-r to contend with.

@Krusafix

Holy shit! Thats exactly the info im looking for. Thanks for those links!

@Seraphik

Glad I could help

So basically.. take care of your shit and it last long. Wow, amazing! LOL

@Gunhed: "Yeah, cuz there's no bands being pressed to cd right now that sound like "beginners imitating suicide commando.""<<<

ooh, SNAP! +15 exp points.

I think the only cdrs Ive ever bought were at shows. Int he realm of a show, a cdr is most accepted.

@ Seraphik,

The answer to your A Challenge of Honour question is:

"Monuments" was released on Steinklang, which is a vinyl-based label. It was primarily a vinyl release (500 copies). However, for some releases Steinklang will also put out an additional 100 copies on cdr, presumably for those who don't play vinyl any more.

This is further complicated by adding a free 7" to 150 vinyls. As the 7" tracks are also on the cdr, it makes the cdr even more collectable and harder to track down. Collector Heaven...

That said, ACOH have released a lot of cdrs. "The Right Place", "Fold Your Wings Awhile" and "Vienna" are also on cdr, and were all limited to about 100 copies, which is far fewer than they could have sold, judging from their sales on Divine Comedy. They do seem unusually keen to make their fans work hard for their releases.

http://www.novatune.de

There are labels making Cd-R's. I think this is a very important thread. Yes it costs money to make a properly pressed CD. one does have to have alot of confidence in their music to feel there is a market for it, and this is a good thing I think. But I also like the idea of exclusive live CD-R's or things that are limited. Some bands who have been on a label, but no longer have a deal have also begun re-issuing their releases on CD-R becuase they can't afford to press thousands of copies of each release:

www.Data-Bank-A.com

http://www.side-line.com/forum/threads.php?id=6809_0_20_0_C

seems in this thread are some "missguided" opinions on CDRs.
so pls. refer to above thread to read some more info....

i can understand that ppl. using cheap equipment, noname cdrs and
inferior quality assurance have given this medium a bad reputation.

future AQ releases will show that it can be done the right way.

cd-rs sucks

I've finally decided to release a cdr, but with a nice booklet, cd art/tray inlay art, back art, and pack it with stickers and pins. Reason being if enough people on an doffline bug ya about a CD, well hey, a cdr isnt going to cost that much in good quanities I guess and its something to send out. People like a cd, as much as ya tell people to just download the songs for free:) OF course ya do need exclusive content and remixes too.

What am I reading in this other extremely long thread, Alpha?

Since posting this Ive come across a few Cdrs that, due to the packaging and make up of the Cdr, it doesnt look like a Cdr at all. And thats awsome. But Ive also found myself still shelling out $14 for a Cdr that sometimes comes with next to nothing in terms of artwork, inserts, etc. I just dont see the logic there in doing that.

Well, I think 14 is a bit much for a CD-R (especially since you say it doesn't come with many extras). The new Urusai album (which is a double CD-R) is only 10 bucks. Which I think is very good. Especially considering it has remixes from Converter, Manufactura, Displacer and more. It's like getting 2 full albums for 10.

@ xeno: would be interested in your cdr release.

@ sera: yes, 14 too much, my releases will be prices from 8-10€ which i think is okay, with all the work, testing etc. mind oyu that in germany you must pay for normal cds up to 16,99€ which is way to expensive, so my cdrs offer much better value for money

@ tele: double cdr for 10 is good price i think

We just did a CD-R release.

Well, kinda. We did a free-EP on the Online just for some promo, but since a few people are very anti-download, we also are doing CD-Rs for a very small fee..no quality loss since it's coming off the master recordings, we still have something physical to promo some DJs with until our next full-legnth and...hell, for a short-run like this we didn't have a lot of options. You wanna do numbers less than 500 you really don't have a lot of choice...

cd-r promos are acceptable i think, i'm not dropping a shitload of money on putting demos on glass masters.

to get the name out i even make the disc mixed mode with a data section on it with the tracks and a few bonuses in mp3 on the disc. the id3 tags have the website in them and a bit of info about the songs themselves, when you're a new act nothing helps get the name out better than letting the songs get passed around. i encourage the mp3s to be passed around, it's gotten me quite a number of sales over time.

of course once and if i do get around to real cds i can see the copy method biting me in the ass potentially down the line. that's where good packaging and value comes in handy.

no matter what people are willing to buy if it's a well packaged release.

@arix"when you're a new act nothing helps get the name out better than letting the songs get passed around. i encourage the mp3s to be passed around, it's gotten me quite a number of sales over time.
"<<

hey, I am all for that, well speaking for myself. I want people, even if they buy my cds at shows or on my comic site, to feel free to spread around like a Virus. I put some full length songs online and videos, then put remastered versions on the cd, with exclusive songs and remixes. throw in some extra goodies like stickers or pins, or what not, and voila. At my next show Im even going to have 4" plushes base don my logo character; so again, if ya can distract from the fact its a cdr its all good. Oh, and I have a fetish for minamlist artwork:

something basic for you guys...I know you are having alot of fun...but reality says...if you give everything away for free..what would inspire anyone to want to buy it.????..if the musician gives it all away thats saying something...
I know I'm not buying anything that is given away for free.
Just about anyone I have ever talked to feels the same way...you aren't rock stars..they could care less about buttons and all that crap..LOL.

I know you have to do that to get attention when so many pro-bands actually sell their cd's...real cd's..cd's that are pressed professionally..
I like how everyone wants to talk about professional until it comes to CD-r releases..then its fine to do it the cheapie way..and we're all supposed to accept it cause you don't have the balls to do it with a real pressing like you know you want to...or else you wouldn't get so annoyed when someone gives you the real deal..

Distributors don't buy cd-rs..
Stores will not buy them...I deal with many of the above..and not 1 will take cd-rs..thats why I am debating..cause theres a handful of you doing it here and you are all cheering each other on..I don't hear anyone else saying they will buy it though...

most customers won't buy them...I know..I am in the business for 10 years...I know alot of newbies forget that and will be the first to attack my simple point.

tonight at the radio station I had 3 cd-rs fuck up on me..and it makes my show sound bad on the air...I get really annoyed with CD-rs and considering not bothering anymore unless someone actually puts the cash in to do it right....we all have to bite the bullet for our art sometimes..not everything is this easy as you guys think...I never even heard of any of these cd-r bands..

have fun with all that cd-r stuff...when you get serious about the work you can put your money where your mouth is..

Wow, the same boring rant I've read 6 times now. Get over it, Tommy. Some people like CD-R's, even if you don't. and what the fuck is a "pro band" - haha.. How silly.

no..YOU and the bands that can't come up woth enough cash to do a real cd like it..DJ's, Distro's, stores and customers don't..and they are who matter..
LOL

stop fooling yourself.
I knew you would be the first to start with me
thats my opinion....deal with it...this forum isn't your forum only...its for all of us...Done with you.

Yeah, this forum is for everyone, I agree. Which is why it's funny when I post a message I'm "following you around." I'm a consumer and I like CD-R's. I also like vinyl, pressed Cd's and netlabel releases. Because I like music, period. I don't restrict my taste (or support) based on something silly like plastic.

Its not about that...its about releasing something that no one wants to buy, stock or have in their store,as well as most online shoppers...

....if you are making personal demos for friends or to give away free thats fine..I see CD-rs as a good demo tool to get heard, but selling them and making them out to be a real retail ready cd-r will never pass by the inspectors and people who do the business and get the music to the fans..I was just giving the other side of this argument.

No worries...I ain't trying to change your mind..and my mind definately is not..when I have lost customers over cd-r deals..

Well, I don't know about "most" consumers because honestly I don't go with the herd, I support what I like and the people that make it. I couldn't care less about your sales figures or your opinion on what makes a band "pro" or not. Which is a silly argument to begin with. I've dealt with bands that have pressed their cds who act totally unprofessional. But hey, they happen to make more money than X band who releases their music on CD-R so they must be better somehow. I'd rather throw my support behind good music and let people like you fight over why you can't sell cds.

at what point did we miss that myself and cory were pressing cd-r DEMOS,
not full lengths?

it's just promo, just as many of us here have full songs for download on myspace, soundclick, acidplanet, etc.

i'm not trying to get this stuff carried through a distributor, just in the hands of people. hell, the last demo process did we managed to sell 200 of them, people knew they were cd-r and didn't give 2 shits. that was before i even got to expand through use of the internet. i even went out of my way to get the best print jobs for the liner, hours and hours in 3d studio max and photoshop. a great deal of care goes into everything i do.
when we have a full length album professionally mastered i will silver press it and i bet people will buy it. why?
2 reasons mainly:

1.) fans know the effort i put into things.

2.) because people still do buy cds even though they have the ability to obtain all of them for free anyhow.

i bet i can find every artist on this forum for the price of a trip onto irc or even soulseek, right down to dvd releases. (don't think vinyls are immune either.)

have more faith in the buying public, we're not trying to cram crap down their throats, nor is any of the cd-r labels mentioned even dishonest about it.
it's just music getting into the hands of fans. there wouldn't be so many of these if they weren't going somewhere with it, people ARE buying them.

i know you've been around for 10 years in business, but that same business has changed greatly. there's way more competition now, even from a little "newbie" schmuck like myself...

lol..here we go again.
Telephasic-You always talking about. Supporting the CDR release bands. But your on the DSBP promo list right? That moves me to believe you are on other promo lists as well. So do you actually shell out the cash for these CDR demos that you call releases or are you getting them as promos and asking other people to pay for them and support the artists?

This discussion is simple and I have no idea why we are still going over it. Make your CDR demos/promos whatever. Sell them or don't sell them. But if you want mass distribution and a world wide fan base-I would suggest following the route of a professionally packaged pressed CD. That is the only way the majority is going to take you seriously as an artist. I have some really great CDR demos that I have gotten from friends and fans all over the world. So I am in no way knocking the artists, and I know Tommy isn't either. He is a huge supporter for the scene. But to be professional in this industry. It's important to make and maintain connections/put your heart and soul into performance and production/and to have an industry standard product for distribution. This doesn't mean you have to shell out the money to duplicate discs and artwork yourself. make CDR demos and if your going to sell them, make it a discount price. It's only fair if your going to cut corners that the fans get to cut corners as well.

Now can we move on to another discussion already?
`michael

Soillodge: First of all, what does me being on the DSBP promo list have anything to do with buying CD-R's? They don't release CD-R's. But since you want to bring it up, yes. I was on the DSBP Records promo list, I say "was" because I no longer am. Tommy has a real problem with people saying anything negative about his releases. He lives in this world where he thinks because he sends someone a cd from his label for free that should equal a good review. Also, just recently a friend of mine bought the latest cd from The Mercy Cage. I actually reviewed that copy and told Tommy to not send me a promo so he could save money. I ended up buying my friends copy from him because he didn't like it as much. I'm not asking ANYONE to pay for what they don't want, I was simply implying that some people do buy and support CD-R's. If you don't want to, that's fine, but saying that "consumers don't buy CD-R's" is just wrong. Because from this thread, some of them clearly do, myself included. If nobody was buying them, these labels wouldn't be still around. and calling a band that releaeses a cd-r a "joke band" or whatever isn't supporting the artist, it's just bashing them because they release on a format you don't think is 'professional.'

I've spent thousands on cds over the years, so I don't think I need to justify my spending habits to you or anyone else. With that said, I respect your opinion. And I would love to move onto another discussion.

Also, nobody on here said CD-R's should be priced as much as pressed CD's. They should be priced cheaper, because they're not as expensive to produce. Another reason why a scene as small as ours should be supporting it. The new Urusai album is 10 bucks for 2 CD-R's. One album and a second full of remixes. But I'm done debating it, because no matter what anyone says, you guys are gonna have your opinions. I'll continue to enjoy all the awesome music, regardless of format, technology or means of getting it. Be it the "big bad corporate monsters trying to kill DSBP Records." or the small CD-R label just trying to get music to fans and everything in between.

@Tommy: it's the people at shows, and people online always bugging me about releasing something. You can have every single song online, and people will still want to buy a cdr. I have a lot of gamer people wanting me to release a cd just on the gimmick alone. There is definately a segment of peopel that will buy a cd out of support and if thought is put into making it look as professional as possible.
People pay hundreds of dollars ot get what they think is pro duping, but they still end up in actuality being cdrs.

@Telaphasic:"Wow, the same boring rant I've read 6 times now. Get over it, Tommy. Some people like CD-R's, even if you don't. and what the fuck is a "pro band" - haha.. How silly."<<<

Good post. Maybe to some a pro band is one that is signed; even tho the bar for being signed is maybe a 20th of what it was even say 5 or 6 years ago(when A23 and VNV werent even signed thru metropolis yet)

@arix:"at what point did we miss that myself and cory were pressing cd-r DEMOS,
not full lengths?"<<<

Well I do agree that outside of concert and online distribution, cdr's can ultimately only go so far. But when youre doing a demo EP, well hey nothing wrong with that. Look at the Feindflug and Terrorfakt cdr demos, people love those.

You also have to know your audience. Tommy it seems, perhaps only stays within a certain genre or pool of marketing tastes. But ya look at Cruxshadows, and they have a grassroots audience thats gone outside the goth field.
The industrial niche scene is too small to stay within, when it comes to marketing.

I advertise and get linked to from well trafficked gamer and geek related sites, from my themes alone. I run a comic site that gets 2000 people a day, as well as a vast promotional infrastructure within the anime and import toy world too.
My last concert got over 200 people, a good amount of those people just seemed like regular guys and girls. So if you market your product right and ya have some kind of unique thing going on; it doesnt matter if youre influences are Funker vogt and Suicide Commando, a lot of non scene people are gonna dig it. Im on a Japanese toy company compilation that debuted at San Diego comic con(Andrucaloid was also on it) If the EBM industrial scene can woo audiences and get their tentacles into vastly different scenes...that will be good for sales all around.

If ya stay wihtin this orouboros of a small industrial scene, sales will be abismal.
MEtropolis signed Backandtotheleft after reporting brisk sales of the self released cd. Im guessing it may have been 200-300 cds boguth quickly within a two month period. What happens when an underground startup band sells 1000 or more cdr demos within a similair time frame? Its all about marketing to people outside the scene, getting a good fanbase, buzz, and grassroots appeal, again, outside the scene.

11, 10 years ago people had to spend thousands of dollars to presss cds that to this day still line their closets. Now days, you can be in direct control of how many cds you make. The band can make 100% of the profits, and can use part of that revenue for online marketing and promotion. Its so silly to advertise within the scene, when there is a massive ocean of potential ready to be discovered. Call me Christopher fucking Columbus, and I fully support the idea of bands releasing nicely done cdr releases.

amazing man!! you have tons of fans wanting those cd-rs.wow!! thats a first!!

I admit this is is the first such story I heard of this...a band being so in demand that people would buy their cd-rs...when I work with hundreds of bands that have great releases out, on real pressings, and not so many sales for most of them...(no,,telephasic, not all my bands not selling).
but then again we can all say we sell thousands of cd-rs and no one heard of us,but we really did it..whatever..
We ARE the UNDERGROUND here as well.DSBP has been working in the
underground before you were ever in this scene..so don't act like you are so much more aware...its annoying dude.....
You talk to me like you know so much more...oddly enough DSBP and CYBERAGE has been around for a good amount of time and have sold thousands of cd's, and I think in that time I have learned alot and covered most of these bases that you act like they are all new....gamers are just like
the rest of the downloaders...they find what they can for free...they are addicted to games..and thats where they spend their cash...but most of them get the downloaded versions too..I know plenty of gamers, and we are known in those circles too...LOL

I like how you act like you know it all..but no one I know has ever heard of your band and most that I have asked(with the exception of 1 guy) says they would never buy a cd-r release when they can get the song for free online..

I think cd-rs are demos...thats it....why keep arguing...oh yeah..cause you can't release it the real way..cause you know you won't be able to move the units..if you had thousands wanting your CD-r you might as well press it for real..you may even save some cash doing it that way...

haha. I'm so done debating. If that's what you call this. "I was doing this before you were in even in the scene." haha. and you called me the elitist. Nice attitude, dude. Whatever.

Oh no, not the ol 'everyone out there is a freeloader' thing. Up until 1998 one could not download or copy, well at an affordable price. It's about exposure...if someone has never been exposed to new or underground bands, how the hell are they spose to hear it...what, 30 second clips or blindly spending $18? naw...if a band is good it will end up on the p2p and IRC type things. that is good, it means your band is actually *liked* The number of scene people who buy is not going to magically grow, thats why its inherent and imperative to begin thinking outside the usual framework of scene marketing. To expand. However, if say every band sounds like wumpscut or i snoise like, that definately isnt going to have a broad appeal. And if half the fans of that just download anyways, well that I can see is a sales problem.

I don't know it all, Im offering ideas to what otherwise seems to you like an always losing proposition. I remember a time when Metropolis used to advertise in newstand publications, and promote with different things. But its hard, I know. Everything is money. How do you, as a band label get new people excited or attract a new fan base? I want underground labels to be prosperous and doing well, but I notice a lot of advertising efforts are concentrated in a small area.

Im not a know it all, Ive just been observing for a little over a decade, and seen how the scene has changed since the advent of the internet.

maybe I know that what I said is true..
so stop the name calling..
you are a very sad man..

that was geared at Telephasic who always likes to add in on anything I say...he likes to follow every thread I am in...its funny

@Xenocannon.
thanks for the good discussion...at least you are cooler about it then some people here that like to mess with me..

all of our bands end up on p2p networks and it is sad when hundreds e-mail me day about how much they love our stuff and then so many ask where they can find lyrics for bands that have the lyrics printed in the cd....
see?
I have been told "yeah dude..I downloaded the ESR and Run Level Zero CD and been spreading that around so people know you guys"....yeah..but they are all getting free copies.....so the bands and label both lose out...why?
we are the ones putting out all the cash for the releases..why do they get free shit and we have to pay so much?
or wait..I like this one.....I gave this one dude a Severe Illusion cd and then 3 weeks later he is all like..."dude...I made some copies of that and my friends really like it"....did they buy it....fuck no.
these are just a few stories from someone actually in the business...and scene and tells you guys this side..since alot of the other label owners don't want to talk to the fans as much.

I asked the bands on my label once...
we are gonna go all CD-R and downloads....is that cool with you if we do that with your album you worked 2 years on?
you'll never really be able to tell how many we did make..cause they are cd-rs...theres no real count on them or anything..we can just sell what we want and say we only sold 20...how would you know?
anyways...
the bands were all ready to jump shit and get on another real label..if we were gonna go that way...or just do it themselves, and give the cd-rs away..

these are just a few stories from the front lines here...

Nah, more like it's pointless to "debate" with you. Because you say the same tired shit over and over again and don't listen to anything anyone else has to say. because they're all wrong and don't know what they're talking about.

Sounds like a lot of whining. Downloading is apart of every scene. A lot of people buy cds, you just want to focus on the negative.

and what do you do????
sit around on this forum 24/7 acting like you are mr. know it all.
but you have nothing to back it up really...and you are the one saying the same tired shit over and over...as I am conversing with others..you are always trying to get in the way..."fun blocker" you are..

you are not in the business nor are you a musician or distributor...yet you talk like you are so much in the know and more than me.
you are bitter that some of us are successful..yet we can still talk on the levek with everyone else who is kinda cool...unlike you...

facts are facts, duh!!

you are the bitter whiner who doesn't do shit for the scene but talk about cd-rs and anything else free...like your zine..which isn't even a zine..you are too cheap to even print it....no wonder no one likes or knows about it...LOL.

That's right, I'm a consumer and a fan. That gives me just as much right to give an opinion. I'm bitter because you're successful? haha, that's funny. You blast on Metro all the time because people support them a lot more than your label. yeah, sounds like you're bitter. whatever dude. I've had plenty of good conversations with people here. But I'll let you continue your little dsbp pity party.

Side LIne..
now thats a Zine!!!

Yeah, I think it's more constructive to have it online, where everyone can read it for free, instead of just 6000 or so people if I printed it. I talk about all forms of music, CD-R, Pressed CD's, Vinyl, Netlabels, etc.. Because I'm a fan of music. Nothing wrong with that. Should we only talk about bands signed to labels and pressing cds? That's a bit silly.

I never blast on metro...idiot..I have blasted on the idol worship way some kids are....they remind me of the mainstream..

you have an opinion..but unfortunately you obsess over me..you just like to start wars with me cause its all you can do is argue..
I don't need to even bother with you..but you ruin any thread that I am in at all...other than Cyberage playlists...I know your plan..it isn't working.

I am jaded too of course...anyone who does business and releases music in this scene is...whether they admit or not..
I am a bit more honest and actually give instigators like you the time of day...you been doing this since RMI with me..just under different alias...so...
just chill out...I am bored of you.

stan (telephasic)doesn't want me to be able to converse with people.soo..he will break into any converation I am a part of...this is getting really fucking annoying...its not me...really..its him.

is there something where I can block users?

so i don't have to read his posts that are always aimed at just annoying me...i don't know why..I can't talk on here without this "policemen" bothering me...

Puhlease Tommy, you're getting a bit carried away. This thread is about CDr's, which I like, so why wouldn't I post? If you don't like what I have to say, then ignore it. Are we not allowed to post in threads Tommy T is in? Is that one of the rules I missed?

i think we just all need to hold hands

such a sensitive topic.

i already said my piece and i think everyone has, just drop the whole thing and continue doing what we do.

what works for netlabels and cd-r labels works, it reaches their target

us newer acts doing demo and promo cd-rs are reaching their target

labels like DSBP doing silver press reaches their target


the point is: all of these methods are reaching their audience, and isn't that what releasing any music is about?

I'm up for holding hands (hehehe). I just have strong opinions on stuff, as does Tommy. So I'm all for being chill and letting it be as it is. btw, Tommy, I just emailed you back.

Actually, some stores DO buy CDRs. Christ, HMV carried ours... and that was 6 - 7 years ago.

Additionally, CDs are not that much less prone to skipping or otherwise "fucking up" in a player. Just because the medium should theoretically be the way to go, there's plenty of pressing plants out there who are taking the quick way out and pressing a lesser quality product. Even the most respectable pressing plants are going to screw up on a run, too... you get a CD that's a dud, you get a CDR that's a dud. I can honestly, and without exaggeration, say that I've seen about as many from both... and it has also been shown that the mastering plants sometimes do NOT look over the final product even when they are done with it. Take The Iris - Awakening limited digipak release, for example. Anyone who owns the disc (which ended up being what I got) is aware that the final track 'Island' stops cold and the disc is improperly finished. It was admittedly an error in production, that the band accepted responsibility for - but the pressing company didn't check that out, either.

Now...when it comes to cost, several of the CD pressing outfits are offering 1000 pressed CDs for $1000. Often times, that is including 4 pages of packaging, as well. Now... that works out to $1 per disc, fully packaged, pressed, etc... CDR, to the typical consumer, sells for approx 40 cents per (though they go down as low as 30 cents). Add to that equation the cost of ink... the cost of paper (which is typically not a simple sheet of looseleaf), and much of the cost is actually realistically getting quite close to being no different. It kind of throws the whole "cheap" argument out the window.

Also... it would be a shame to push any sort of credibility one has by making comments like "facts are facts" on the issue of P2P, which I've even seen somewhere as being something that is 'Republican'

O_o


o____O



...

For the record... the Republicans are typically the 'money party'. The Republicans are the anti-P2P lobbyists, more often than not. The Republicans are responsible for such things as the introduction of The INDUCE Act and previous bills introduced prior to such. The Republicans are the same bunch that will turn around, immediately after, and state that they were introduced by 'Hollywood Liberals', even though the individuals introducing them are on the Right... Republicans themselves... Sen. Orrin Hatch, for example. Just to point it out... but that's all besides the point, really.

Worldwide, several independent labels have seen a significant INCREASE in sales, as reported per annum. Studies conducted by Harvard (one significant study by PROFESSORS, not students) and the University of North Carolina have come to the conclusion that the impact is minimal, while others show that there are positive & negative impacts. Typically, the ones who will dismiss that as being 'inconsistent' compared to their own analysts (quite a bold move considering the individuals in these institutions are very likely the same crowd who TAUGHT the 'analysts') are the Big 4 and those who follow that whole RIAA movement and/or philosophy. When faced with conflicting facts placed before them by individuals who are often simply more intelligent, really, it is violently rejected - a refusal to accept anything aside from some sort of personal vendetta or belief.

However, even the RIAA has acknowledged that a huge part of the problem is a recessive economy, and the simple fact that there is a lot more available to consumers now - especially in terms of technology - as there ever was before. Videogames and the units that play them have continued to be one of the largest markets out there. Gone are the days when you simply owned an Atari... or a Nintendo... or your Sega Master System. Now, if you're a gaming type, you own BOTH a Playstation and an X-Box... and you likely have your PC, as well. It's not all that rare to have all of the above + the Gamecube, Dreamcast, or what have you as well. Not only are consumers (and not only children/teens - the gaming industry spans well into the 30 year old+ age range) owning these units... they are buying games for both or all, as well! Sometimes, players will own a specific game for a Playstation and own the exact same game for an X-Box as well. You get the idea... it's a huge cash cow, and will continue to be. Just because there are people who are gamers out there does not make them whores to the industry or sheep... it means they have a different idea of enjoyment out of something than some of us might. Nothing more. Additionally, teens are running around now with cell phones and the like. I'm just climbing towards 30 years old myself, and when I was a teen, the majority of the other kids certainly did NOT have cellulars. That was something of a luxury... now, it's almost commonplace. You're naked without one, and don't forget your ringtones! $2 up for some of those things?? I think you see where I'm going overall. There is a lot more demanding the attention of the consumer, young and old, and average income has not been rising steadily to keep up. When I was 16 years old, $5 - $7 per hour was a pretty typical minimum wage... here we are, 12 years later, and that remains the same.

As I've mentioned previously, I've been closely involved in the P2P 'scene' for some time now, and certainly follow the stories, studies, and cases that go along with that. To label me as being a 'freeloader', 'untrue to the scene', 'cheapskate', or so forth because of this is blatently false, faulty logic, and quite frankly, ill informed. If an individual wants to carry that opinion, that's absolutely fine, though the use of the word 'fact' may be worth looking up before making use of the word so loosely: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fact .

In the case of promo lists... I've certainly got the option of receiving releases promotionally, and DO receive promos. However, that certainly does not stop me from pulling out my wallet to get my hands on the albums that do it for me. If a promo is sent (keeping in mind that an artist or distributor WILLINGLY sends that item out for the opinion of the writer, be it positive or negative), and I happen to enjoy that CD, I have been known to turn around and send that artist or distributor cash for that material. In some extreme cases, a little bit more will be sent than asked - I've done that with KiloWatts material, as well as The Azoic on a Nilaihah order, for example. As for Urusai, anyone who has heard of Displacer, Converter, even Manufactura... or Gridlock will either know who it is, or soon will, unless completely in the dark. The three artists first mentioned there all appear on the album, which would hint towards him being an absolute nobody. As for purchasing it, the stocks are certainly going down, and I happened to get #49 of a limited run of 222... 50 sales in approx. 2 weeks? I'd say it's moving just fine, for being an absolute newcomer... and, yes, I most certainly paid for mine, too:

http://www.proteus93.com/invoice.jpg


Now, with all of that aside, I don't see anything more I have to add to the discussion. However, it would be nice to see the drop in generalizations that envelope a wide group of individuals unfairly and wrongly. I certainly don't target out any group as being absolutely 'wrong', with that being that. If, in any instance, that appears to be the case, it is certainly not intended and I can assure it's a misconception that is not meant in such a way.


Finally, though, just to make a point which is directed specifically at Tommy. I'm not making any attack in making the statement, and I am not going to go back through pages (or years? O_o) of he said / she said. However, such a statement as "Stop with the insults" followed by "You are a sad man" effectively renders the first statement redundant. Following a request to stop insults with an insult is quite passive aggressive, and realistically rules the first comment null and void. While I'm not going to draw up some defence statement that you were never "victimized" by personal insult, I will state that it is not the best of etiquette, and does hurt what could be a strong statement, in terms of credibility. You can't resort to double negative tactic of offence if you wish to be looked at with a positive bias in an argument or debate setting.



Now, let us embrace.
/passion

This is so fucking retarded. how many time have we tried to kill this discussion. I think those of us that are rational have stated our opinions and come to conclusions that fit our aim. There is no point to personal insults and it seems to be getting out of hand yet again. No wonder we all make such ravenous harsh electro music..lol So passionate about every damn thing. Don't even get me started on politics or i'll turn into a slathering mad animal..lol

Can we please change the damn discussion. How about artwork for CD's? Or amazing packaging ideas? I was really impressed last night when I got my promo of Nemesis and it's in some hybrid double DVD case. Also I love the hands packaging. Anyone have any cool maybe inexpensive but unknown forms of packaging that we might all explore? Did anyone get that Nurse With Wound CD that was made out of several wood paintings?

Can we PLEASE get constructive here?
`michael

Xeno:

Love the artwork on that. Reminds me of Atari 2600 days with Space Invaders ;p

"I know I'm not buying anything that is given away for free." - You might want to rethink that statement, Tommy...

@ Xenocannon - Looks like a good release you've got there...what does your music sounds like. I'm intrigued by the gamer links... I'd buy a plush Space Invader in an INSTANT!! Just ignore tommyt, he doesn't seem to accept that people can get places using "inferior" media.

*smiles and pats tommyt on head*

*waits for "ive been in this business for years...your just weak...duh" comments*

@Soillodge - Endvra's boxed version of "Great God Pan" has some Endvra-based Tarot cards that are pretty nifty. I'm sure I have some more lim-ed boxes that I'm forgetting in the heat of the moment.

@dan_h:
"@ Xenocannon - Looks like a good release you've got there...what does your music sounds like. I'm intrigued by the gamer links... I'd buy a plush Space Invader in an INSTANT!! Just ignore tommyt, he doesn't seem to accept that people can get places using "inferior" media."<<<<

If Funker Vogt and Suicide Commando had an orgy with VNV, Tactical Sekt, Weird Al and a Frogger arcade machine:) It's pretty much a spoof of the 'hellectro' and 'futurepop' sound, cept Im singing about Metroid, Megaman,
giant robots, anime and other 80's stuff from my childhood. The kids seem to dig it. I just couldnt sing about 'sands of time' or 'government death religion'.

Anyways, heres some of the tracks I have online:
(Recently up my new song 'Megaman Unite!', which someone described as VNV Nation's Chrome run through a Nintendo)

http://www.xenocanon.com/
http://www.myspace.com/xenocanon

@seraphik:"
Love the artwork on that. Reminds me of Atari 2600 days with Space Invaders ;p"<<<

thanks! I even created original 8-bit sprite scenes for the booklet, from a "Xenocanon" video game Im working on conceptually. It's a bit misleading tho, I only use 8-bit sounds sparringly on a couple songs, as I use the Virus Indigo sounds way more than the 8-bit eumlated stuff. But yes, Xenocanon will crush Kompressor, and take over the EBM world before too long:)

I see ...this was a good time for you to just whore your band out...thats all you been really doing here...not talking about the overall subject..just about
YOUR band....dude...everyone has a band now...most of us for a long time..

I don't hear anything special....sorry...

Whoring bands out?

This is a whole new level of hypocrisy from you sir.........

Rivetmike

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a little free promotion but you of all people would be the last I would expect to see complaining about it.

Rivetmike

actually dude..I don't sit in a conversation like this and promote my band...
its about cd vs. CD-r..not about his great band...

and no, I don't sit on here saying all my bands are the best....not once did I ever say that were were taking over the scene...

As Mike says, this is new levels of madness from you, Tommy. You may've missed the bit where I asked "what does your music sounds like"... Xenocannon kindly replied to my query, he wasn't "whoring" anything...sheesh!

BTW, downloaded one of the Diverje samples last night... Sorry, Tommy, but I just didn't like it. I know you expected me to say that but it just didn't grab me at all.

Can I ask why you called the band "Diverje" and not "Diverge"?

yeah..you like experimental music...we are EBM.industrial with hardcore vocals..
its not your thing...I don't like alot of shit either..
lets hear your stuff

Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of Wumpscut/Suicide Commando style stuff and I've got more harsh industrial compilations than I could shake an arcwelder at but couldn't really get your tunes. Maybe it's cos it's only a 1 min sample. Didn't think that the vocals were *particularly* hardcore, I thought they were pretty nice and melodic, to be honest.

You can download tracks and samples of the stuff on my label from the Monkeyhouse website, if you wish, but I wouldn't want to whore my music about. I doubt that you'd like it anyway.

you can stream more of our tracks from...
http://www.myspace.com/diverje
http://www.soundclick.com/diverje
http://www.myspace.com/dsbp

judging a band on a 1 minute clip is kinda weird..thats why I am giving the links.

I'll check yours out too.give me the link and I'll be open minded..

I agree, a full track would be good so I'll check out your links. You can get straight to my downloads at http://www.monkeyhouse-recordings.co.uk/Monkeyhouse/ReleasesReStock.htm. There are full tracks there as well as a sample from a longer track. They're fairly low-quality MP3s to make up/downloading easier.

"You can stream..." - Oh, are they just streams? My poxy dial-up connection doesn't take too kindly to streaming music. Can you actually download the music to a local machine anywhere? Don't worry, I won't bootleg your stuff..=)

To get this topic back on track...

I see no problem with unknown bands doing CDRs for demo or promo purposes, or for a self-released album (just to get the name out there without spending too much money). In fact, it would be almost stupid not to do that.

However, for commercial purposes, I think there really is a big difference between CD and CDR. Yes, you can spout off the "music is music, no matter what the medium" argument until you're blue in the face, but it all boils down to putting your money where your mouth is. If you're confident enough in your music, if you feel your material is strong enough, do it on a "real" CD. If you think your material is weak or leaves something to be desired, by all means do it on a CDR. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or anything, but usually when someone releases a commercially-available album on a CDR, it's because they KNOW it isn't going to sell.

So some of you are missing the point here...it's not about the music itself (sure it'll sound exactly the same on a CD as on a CDR), it's more about the implications of what it means for an artist/label to release something on a certain medium. If a label spends thousands on an "actual" CD, it shows they truly believe in that release, and thus I'd be more inclined to buy it.

Another thing is this...I recently brought up the idea of doing CDR-EPs/singles for some upcoming SSR releases. While some of the artists on the roster were okay with this, a couple of them were staunchly against it. Their argument was "we spend years trying to get to the point where we don't HAVE to release CDRs". So, in the end, I've decided against it.

So in conclusion...CDR = perfect for demos, promos, or anything you're giving away for free. CD = perfect for full-length albums, or anything people are actually going to pay for.

Call me a luddite if you must, but I still think that the good-old-fashioned-CD is #1.

well, much sales don´t always mean = good music....

or do you think most of the s*** mtv + commercial radio plays is
"good music" ? but it sells...there is much marketing + image involved
also....

but perhaps you are right , infinity machine, you make me think again about
my plans + ideas.

Right on !
@Infinity machine
I totally agree with that assessment...and bascially been trying to explain this point as well.It will come with some argument here you'll see..and long winded, desperate attacks at proving us "wrong"...but its too hard to prove wrong what is right.
I was not trying to get into fights with anyone, but sometimes what needs to be said...needs to be said...and the customers and bands and distro's and stores mostly feel the same about this I think....UNLESS they are a newbie unsigned band...then its usually like they hate the labels and bands that are releasing the real cd's, cause they can only afford Cd-r's..and then they think of ways to make us look like the "evil record labels who charge too much"..(even though we don't..e.specially comapred to them charging anything at all for a cd-r)to try to mask the jealousy or whatever it is..
good post...get ready for the rebuttal...
while most are just pirated shit online...and I have some good examples all the time in my inbox about this.

@Alpha Q..
yeah..good idea...and that was the
same thing I was saying before I was attacked as well...

good to see it getting through a bit.

I could cares less. Some of my favorite albums I've bought this year were on cd-r. In Russia (I live in Moscow).....EVERYTHING is bootleg. I can buy Metropolis bootlegs, right on the street. Its probably harder to find a legit copy than a *real* one in Russia. Also everything is MP3. Most albums sold in Russia right now are MP3 albums with complete discographies of bands, being sold for $5. Trying to find a single album, is almost impossible.

I think this whole debate is purely a USA thing. The rest of the world has moved on, and we could care less.

and thats all thats wrong with people and the music scene these days...
thank you for proving the points....ahhhh feels good to know how right I am and how fucked up most sheeple are..

Russia is known for selling bootlegs and ripping off the artists they say they support..buncha ripoff muthafuckers, and kids in the USA are just as bad...no wonder so many bands and labels are dying off to be replaced by heartless and talentless software writers...

yeah..nothing we can do...thats the problem..the human race is all about sharing things that are not theirs to share in the first place....if all those people sharing my music would share their food and hoes with all of us,we could even it out a bit..but that won't happen..the musicians /labels are the ones to get shit on in this bootlegged, cheap society..

the rest of the world is bootlegging our products and selling them to sheep..thats about it..
don't you see how wrong bootlegging and cd-rs are???
they are killing the real scene..and opening the doors for more wannabees and talentless, theives, and pricks and liars...

nice...rock on

Actually, the people the Americans killed off in their Capitalistic, evil, enterprises (ummm, yeah, the Native Americans), didn't believe in personal ownership whatsoever. Not even in respect to land. I think if you want to talk about idealogical problems with the human race, maybe the Native Americans knew a thing or two. Kill ownership and greed, not cd-rs and sharing.

we are talking about the here and now...and there are reasons for what happened in history...I won't even go into it..cause then we get more arguments..yeah...the rich are evil and they own apple and all the big corporate companies that most of the youth support blindly..instead of supporting the more independent minded labels/bands doing it the right way and charging less per disc than any of the corporates do..but the kids still buy the big commercial shit...anyways..

right now..the problem in the music scene with the human race is bootlegging, no respect for the people putting the music out and creating it..and downloading file sharing..
don't change the subject..lol...

"sharing is fun when its not your stuff..."


would you share your girlfriend with me ?? same concept...my music is as important to me as your g/f may be to you...

I was using an example of a culture, which shared everything as an example that sharing is not evil. I wasn't changing the subject.

I believe tangible product should be shared. The few of the wealthiest people in the world, could sustain the rest of the world easily. I think thats more evil than poor people wanting to share music and art with other poor people. Perhaps your anger is directed at the wrong system?

If we shared more as a culture as a whole, Artists wouldn't be starving regardless of cd sales.

but that utopic vision is even further off from realistic than what I am hoping for..people to stop bootlegging and selling what isn't theirs...as well as downloading everything for free...

I see what you are saying..and wish it was more like that...but it isn't..and never will be...can we at least keep the musicians around???

and the cd's and the works of art that these inspiring people release?
if all art was shared like this....then there would be so many creative people out of work and having to just be corporate drones...thats what the govt wants...less creativity, more control over us all...thats what they are doing with phasing out cd.s....they will make the medium ONLY downloads..then they will police the internet for the file sharers and get it so the music is all in their hands and control..and then charge like $20 per album download on itunes...its coming...if the sheeple let the ipods and itunes take over the music scene...like they are....the corporates have more control..less companies to own..and more cash to make..its easily seen if you really observe how they are all monopolizing everything into big companies..

there's quite a few digital download labels operating right now that have nothing to do with itunes (even though I think itunes does a good job at promoting indy labels, but that's another debate). En:peg Digital for instance is a download label that charges 2 dollars a release and all the money goes straight to the artists. I think if used right, new technology can really help out the scene. Not everyone cares to have CD's, some actually like buying their music digitally and listening on their ipods and digital music players. And no, I'm not talking about people that pirate music, but people that pay for it. Me personally, I like being able to go out and have hours of music to listen to. It's easier than carrying around a CD book of 50 cds.

thats a good point. Digital mediums do have the potential of centralizing things even further (which would be bad). I'm not sure i agree with you, that it will.

Well, this might not be on the same subject, but for personal use, I rip every album I buy to MP3 and burn the MP3s onto CD-Rs. This is because I have an MP3-capable CD player in the car, and after having a bunch of my CDs stolen a couple of years ago, I decided it would be better to just keep the MP3 discs in the car. So MP3 is good in that respect. I don't have to carry around as many discs where they can be ripped off, and if they do get stolen, I can always burn them again onto CD-Rs. The originals stay either at home or in my DJ case.

honestly..this will go in circles with us...over over over and over...
you guys like the cd-rs and downloads.(telephasic, and others)..
and then...
MOST bands, stores, distros, and labels and guys like me, who have invested their whole life and career into their music want to release their cd's right...on real cd's..and have people understand that its not cool to make copies or illegally download.
thats all I am trying to get across here.

if some of you like downloads, good for you..you are also helping the music scene get away from the real format cd's, which are what bands and labels and customers overall seem to like best, as the numbers show.
ipods, downloads an all the trends are followed by trendy people..and thats fine too..being trendy is what alot of people want to be....as thats what they tell you on the commercials on TV to be..so you are being it..good for you...download/ipod trendy types..its all good..
I prefer to stick to my guns and put out better products and not just do what everyone else is just to be cool and accepted and therefore a follower.

enjoy!

It's not about being "trendy" it's about adapting to new technology and using it wisely. Nobody is saying (at least not me) that all music should be released on MP3 and that CD's should be phased out. I'm saying that there's a market for it and indy labels could utilize that market. Nobody is saying it's "cool" to make copies and illegally download music. As I stated above, I was talking about LEGALLY purchasing digital downloads. I'm sure when people were releasing music on cassette tape and CD's came along, they felt the same way, now everyone releases cds and tapes are history. Why ignore new technology? Why would I want to carry around 100 cds everywhere I go, when I can just carry a small digital audio player? That isn't "trendy" that's just common sense.

The only reason I find this topic to be of interest is because of the brilliance of the evil at the top of this debate..........
Its sort of like when a girl finds out her boyfriend has been cheating. Her violence is (90% of the time) directed at the other girl, who is actually usually innocent of any crime. The boyfriend (who is the real villain) escapes unscathed under a mirage of smoke and emotion. Forgiven in the end.
That situation mirrors this debate, as both sides of this argument speak rhetorically of their hatred of the "system" and the "corporations". Yet, our attacks steer clear of these amalgous entities. This is the real evil in this discussion, yet whos throats do we tear at? eachothers.
As long as we're busy fighting over the scraps the Patriarchs leave behind, the dictator never get dethroned. Fucking brilliant, really. If we put that sort of diabolical intellect to work for us, instead of thrashing about, baring our teeth to one another, perhaps we could start something. Something positive. Something beautiful. It seems to me, we all want the same things. For our scene to grow. For artistic geniuses to be able to work full time at supplying us with this beauty. The problem is, while we are busy arguing over the correct roadmap to this ideal, we distance ourselves further and further from it. While I disagree with Tommy on many points, he is one of the few people on this board (in my opinion) who has steel behind his voice. He actively struggles. He is not apathetic like most in this scene. He, myself, all the artists, djs, zines, bleed for this scene. Maybe its time for us to look at our bloodied, soiled hands and to turn our vengeance on the boyfriend.

that was beautifal man...damn, we are all bloodied..thats for sure...and the boyfriend seems to be like as big as Godzilla, and we are mere humans...
he has fire to breathe on us...and we just have to get outta the way if we wanna survive.

sorry tele...I don't jump on something just because its a trend..and itunes/ipods are a trend...thats easy to see..unless you are blind..people will wake up about the inferiority and what the majpr companies are rtaking them over the coals for...mp3's are not a product..they are something that can be easily lost too....like I read some dude complaining about itunes on myspace about..I can post that one here if you are really intrested...

and no, I don't think mp3 technology is an advance..its more like a cassette to me..the sound isn't as good as cd, and its not a product worth buying as a cd is..
I hear what you are saying about you loving downloads as opposed to getting the cd...except thats "what you like"...I base my argument on what hundreds I have talked to and worked with have said as well..thats the difference..your opinion..against like hundreds..with me representing..cause not everyone has the patient to deal with these forums like I do..

I am running low on time though..so I'll continue my end of this ever going debate when I get back from mailing out a bunch of cd orders....

Like I said, not all digital download services are "major companies." I've already posted examples, but you don't seem to care or want to read them.

So when the CD Player came out did you not buy one beacuse it was the new "trend?" And I never said I prefer one over the other, I understand the need for both. All technology is based on trends. I rip a lot of my cds to digital formats so I can listen to them more easily when I'm out. This is only common sense. Why would I want to carry about hundreds of cds when I can do this instead? Also, a lot of fans in other countries don't have the means to buy hundreds of cds because of the high price, so purchasing music they love online (legally) is a perfect sollution. I just don't see why you're so hardset against new technology. There's ways of utilizing it without supporting "big companies." And I'm not sure what bitrate your encoding your mp3s at, but it's far from sounding like a cassette, if done right. Most of the time I can't even hear the difference.

oh man..whatever dude...

the past is the past..I don't even remember when cd players came out...I remember I wanted one after awhile...it was a step up from cassettes..
ac actual product that was worth the cash...downloads /cd-rs are not in my opinion.
mp3 is not a step up from cd's.its a step down..no artwork, no package, no actual cd...its a step down...admit it..you are wrong..

not everyone is out and walking around with headphones on all the time.
maybe alot of people don't have a home..I don't know...
I don't need hundreds of cd's when I go out...I bring a few if I even need it...some of us work and we listen to music at work, and at home...and on stereo systems..
downloading is just annoying and a hassle too..

I prefer to buy a cd...support the band and the labels who are working hard who you seem to dismiss..but without them you wouldn't have most of the cd's you have, because you have a zine...like hundreds of others..thats why my new album I am putting up non-zine reviews...cause it goes to show anyone can be a reviewer or run an online zine...why give them all free cd's???I like to let the fans speak instead.

besides I prefer to help the DSBP bands out and release cd's...
they would feel pretty proud of an mp3 or cd-r release I'm sure....NOT!
none of them were intrested in doing that idea..so its been run by them..
its a feeling you will never know until you release a real cd...its an actual nice feeling of accomplishment...some will never understand..

I think the whole promoting downloads and cd-rs is just making the scene worse..thats my opinion dude...sorry you are so worried about what I think...and it seems you just argue with me to argue with me ....it gets old.
now..I must get out for awhile...i don't need a hundred cd's for my trip though...maybe 1-2...

We got our first CD player in 1988. It was one of those set-top CD players that actually supported the index feature... that's how old this thing is now. Most players don't support that, and I've yet to find a burning program that does, either.

Yeah, and some of us do need a lot of music when we go out. When I'm working out at the gym, I like to have a nice selection of tunes, since I'm usually there a good 3-4 hours. And again, you're assuming I prefer one over the other, which I don't. I still buy CDs. I never dismissed ANYONE.. Please show where I did, Tommy. and what does my zine have anything at all to do with the conversation? I have a zine which means I don't buy cds? Wow, that must mean that because you have a radio show, you don't buy cds. Don't assume something you know nothing at all about. Also, anyone with enough cash can print out a magazine. How does that make them a better writer/reviewer? It's funny, you assume because Tommy T does something this way, that everyone else should do it the same. and I'm not "worried" about what you think, I'm discussing. Isn't that the point of the forum?

And why not do both? Why not offer the pressed cdes to people that want to buy them and then offer that same album digitally to those that just want the music? Some people couldn't care less about artwork and packaging and just want to buy the music. Similar to what Metro, Nilaihah, WaxTrax 2 and many others do.

@ all: seems i´m guilty starting this never ending debate when i dug out that thread.

@ tommyt: i understood most of your arguments from the beginning. most of them i agree with. but i didn´t like your tone u used in some of your replies to other ppl. that were not the same opinion as you, but as it seems you now cooled down.

@ topic: it´s true what TSDF said above. while we go at each others throat the real thread is rising. like already mentioned the thread are the big cooperations, goverments, the big money...the evil which seems to take the world in a downward spiral, so to speak. they don´t want that ppl. think for theirself but blindly follow....tv, press,propaganda etc. are their tools. it´s getting worse day for day..

btw: i would never pay for mp3 music. if i pay i want something in my hand and not some bits on my computer.

and that's your right, but some do.. that doesn't make them "trendy sheep" or whatever the term was. Because they pay for an mp3 that makes them "trendy" and "against the scene."? Or because I use an ipod at the gym so I don't have to carry around a ton of cds and be hassled with changing my music constantly, that makes me "dismiss" the artists? That is beyond absurd.

it's hilarious. You're against new technology and "BIG COMPANIES" and stream your shows in Real Audio. If that isn't the height of hypocrisy, nothing is. But now I'll shut up, because I feel retarded even having this "debate."

yeah..I don't ask people to pay for my shows or the music either..
its promotion on the radio...thats the right way..we been doing it for 10 years...jeezus...dude..you gotta stop reaching so hard to discredit my opinions..I know what I am talking about..I am in the business, a musician and a promoter,and a distributor..you are not involved in any of that..so you only speak as a singular person...I have many that I work with thet I am to represent..and I speak up for alot of them.

before the trendy sheep took over...
bands would get played on radio, and give samples of their music and compilation cd's....people bought cd's based on bands they like..
it is simple...
now...everything has to be sampled in full first(and anything can be burned with the right software, which most people in this scene seem to have..thus the lack of sales overall...
the masses are spreading around mp3's and full albums..bottlegging cd's
and we don't like the trends...so we really don't follow them..thats all..

do what you Stan..who cares anymore? maybe you should tell all the labels to send you mp3's instead for review instead of spending money to send you a cd..we are helping people like you...and you are acting like theres no difference between a real cd and cd-r and downloads..thats the hypocrisy..

telephasic..
I thought you were gonna stop bothering with me?
please..this obsession is sick..

oh..I get it...you wanna harass me and run me off the forum like you have to others before....
no wonder most of the good bands and labels don't bother posting here anymore...it is only a few of us..

Tommy, did I NOT tell you to keep your promo for the Mercy Cage to save you money? You must have forgot. And just because you stream for free, doesn't mean Real Audio isn't making money off it. Where do you think all that advertising money goes? To the artist? and I'm not talking about "the masses" I'm talking about people that purchase music legally. But I'll stop now because really I don't feel like fighting with you and it doesn't do any good.

I'd just like to know why tommyt seens to equate CDrs/MP3s with bootlegging. Sure, some bootlegs are done via those means but a LARGE proportion are done on "proper" CDs (at "proper" CD pressing plants) with full artwork copies.

Going by Tommy's reasoning, the bootleggers have invested their money into the copying processes and so, somewhat strangely, this validates their actions...hmmm.

I have to agree with Alpha Quadrant that it's your tone, tommy, that causes so much aggravation. Calm it down and stop flaming everyone in every other breath. I'll NEVER agree with you on this point, I don't see your obsession with the material need to *own* a CD (although I have to admit to being such a whore for nicely packaged releases) and I don't see your limited, binary notion of *only* CDs being the way to go but I can see it's your way and you're passionate about it.

I think it comes down to ideas of "scene solidarity". You care drastically about the scene, I don't (Please don't equate this with not acring about artists, however. It's not the same at all). I can only see such a thing as limiting. I like MUSIC not boundaries and genres and, for me, anything that breaks these walls down is good. You want to keep it "real"...but I don't think there's anything real left.

Final note - Like Telephasic, I move music that I've bought (yes, BOUGHT) onto my MP3 player so I can listen to it when I choose. CD copy protection is a mild annoyance because of this (only mild, though, because it doesn't work) so I'm against it. Also, I (shock!) copy music from friends and, sometimes, teh eevil intahwabs. My personal experience is that this actually widens the amount of music I buy, not diminishes it. The amount of wildly varied music that I've hunted down and bought (often for large amounts of money) because I got an MP3 from a friend is...well, it's pretty long.

It's a different argument, I know, but offers a different view to tommy's idea that ALL copying, ALL CDrs, ALL MP3s snatch money from the mouths of starving artists.

Anyhoo...

tone? can you hear me? theres alot of times when I get annoyed so I step it up a bit...especially when most arguing against me have never released a real cd pressing and don't have distro or 20 bands to work with and look after...so its a whole different outlook..maybe if I wasn't as involved in what I am with as many different things, and all i was was a musician I wouldn't mind cd-r as much..I don't know..but I'm not in that position.

the copying that many are doing does take money away from the artists and distributors and labels...everyday I talk to people that say they copy and don't buy the cd's...I am in chat rooms all the time under different aliases..hehehe...all of us are..
Its not ALL...its many many people..
thats why most labels are selling 50% or less than they used to with the same amount of releases and some of the same artists...

I don't copy music from friends...If I like a band I buy the cd..simple as that..I buy plenty of cd's that I didn't sample before..thats the beauty of it..surprise!!!downloads are out before so many albums are..it takes away from the anticipation and the "rush" of hearing it all for the first time.
some of us are on different wavelengths..
its intresting all the mails I get from fellow musicians and label owners who agree so much..but don't want to get tossed around and poked on like I do..so they stay away..I don't mind the poking..its kinda funny...all this attention on little ole me and my opinions and label and bands...
hey while we are at it..
http://www.dsbp.cx
lol

I never said bootleggers were validated...I don't know where you got that one..? huh? thats weird.

Its a rampant disease the copying,/.bootlegging/downloading..to say its not is to be in denial of the truth..thats all.....bootlegging of some kind..whether it be on a pressed cd or copied CD-R..if you don't own the music or the label..then you shouldn't be taking whats not yours and copying, and spreading it around...when people have a free download of an album...I doubt they are gonna buy it..lets be serious..you already said you don't like carrying a buncha cd's around..that seems to be the common excuse..."I don't like carrying cd's around..(funny how we all survived doing it before the trends told you that you needed it,lol),, so I put it all on mp3"..
then why do you need a cd of something you downloaded or copied from a friend..
I will keep watching the chatrooms...and proving points.

"tossed around and poked on like I do" - *cackles* Sorry, that means something *completely* different in the UK...=)

"you already said you don't like carrying a buncha cd's around..that seems to be the common excuse..."I don't like carrying cd's around..(funny how we all survived doing it before the trends told you that you needed it,lol),, so I put it all on mp3"..
- Yes, I copy the CDs that I BOUGHT. When will you understand this? It's not a trend, it's not elite, it's not sheeplike...it is convenient for me to have the music I like with me when I'm commuting to work, for example. Some days I feel like listening to Aphex Twin, some days it's Blut Aus Nord (both if which, by the way, I originally heard because someone copied their stuff for me...).

"then why do you need a cd of something you downloaded or copied from a friend.." - Because, shocking as it may seem, I want to support the artists. Something you keep banging on about. If friends hadn't copied me stuff then I would have a FAR smaller record collection and wouldn't have bought music by people like Current 93, Boredoms, Immortal, Cornelius, Mu-Ziq, Boards of Canada and on and on and on... Bought, Tommy. With money.

"I never said bootleggers were validated...I don't know where you got that one..? huh? thats weird." - Your entire point is that CDs are more valid than CDrs because they cost more money to make and so require more commitment from the investor. I would imagine that it costs a fair amount of money to make the outlay to set up a "professional" bootlegging operation. By your argument, that validates them. They've certainly made a financial investment...

By your "tone" I mean the way that you come across with your points. It's always insults against people calling them "weak", "sheep" and "trend followers" with no real knowledge to back this up. It's comments like ""ahhhh feels good to know how right I am and how fucked up most sheeple are.."". It's the way that your posts are hard to read because they are badly written and the way your arguments are circular.

Sorry to be so personal but it would be easier to see your points, like it was easier with Alpha Quadrant's, if they were legible.

If I get banned from the forum for saying this, or get YET MORE idiotic flaming from tommyt, then so be it. Just voicing my opinion.

just voicing my opinion too...so ?
I'm not starting anything with you or getting out of line...just responding to your comments...
the comments are not personal..they are general..and the words "sheep" and "trendy" are common words, they are not hurting people if they are not the trendy sheep? why would it bother you if you are not?

and also...if you think ipods and itunes are not trendy(which is what I said was trendy) then what is it??
who cares what I say soooooo much..its like I get special attention..I'm just another guy...

I like how you carefully can twist an argument by using snippets of
the original argument and then take it out of context...like the bootlegging
comment, that was so unclear on your account...not on mine.
I would never validate any kind of bootlegging no matter how much cash was spent..thats part of my whole argument..the craziness and bootlegging...

hey man,I don't like your tone either, and your personal insutls..so what? we don't like each others tones...big deal..no more idiotic flaming from Dan H please...

just reciprocating...if you can't take it back...don't dish it out.

"I like how you carefully can twist an argument by using snippets of
the original argument and then take it out of context..." - Like you do? Strange, eh?

It's not the terms that annoy me, it's the way that you bandy them about with no real knowledge to back them up.

I have an MP3 player..."Sheep!"

It's not an iPod though..."Elitist!"

I copy music to listen to on my MP3 player..."Thief!"

But I buy the artist's music to support them..."Why? Idiot!"

*sighs*

This isn't a debate, which I would like it to be. I could debate with someone like Alpha Quadrant, even though I disagree with him as much as tommyt, because he makes points in a intelligent, measured way.

I'm for a buyer-orientated market, you're for a seller orientated market. Fine. We'll see how things go.

You may be interested to know that I'm half-considering making my label a netlabel so you'll have even more reason to call me cheap...

good..I hope it works out for you...how does it work out with a net label?
how many hits the songs get?
like myspace.com?
wow..If I had a penny for every spin..hehehhe

I didn't use those responses that you have italicized?once again..the words you put into my mouth are taken out of context here...its o.k..I am used to this once the argument on the other end gets thin with points..

right on..good luck with all...the netlabel sounds like something we will all be doing once the cd's and pressing plants are all gone...it will be the only way..you have a head start.

"how does it work out with a net label? how many hits the songs get?" - Don't know. We'll see. Maybe it's just how many people come back and say that they liked the music.

"I didn't use those responses that you have italicized?once again..the words you put into my mouth are taken out of context here..." - Paraphrasing, Tommy. It's called paraphrasing. You've made similar judgements on other comments here, I just condensed them.

you misplaced them...you made them out to be more than they are...
paraphrasing oh yeah..thanks..I forgot the word there...ahhh well.whatever makes you feel good dude..I have work to do...and actual orders..thanks to my good friends in Germany...actually buying some cd's....
we get more orders from everywhere but the USA...hmmmm

Strange. I get more orders from the US...

And I'm not based in the US.

thats cool...hope it continues to grow for you.

we do get orders from the US..but I guess I am putting it in perspective of
"potential"..when you see how many people are actually "industrial/goth/electro" fans through places like myspace.com
that live in the USA, and you see how the younger kids all like the same things it shows the potential is there..but the market is pushing people towards mp3 more...not many of the people I talk to on myspace.com
seem into cd's that much anymore..

it would be weird if cd's get phased out totally..and then when bands tour all they have are handmade cd-rs or mp3's to sell...i wonder how that will go over...just an intresting thing to think about..
well, thats it for me...one more package and I need a rest...later Dan...no hard feelings...I am burnt on debates for now..

"and then when bands tour all they have are handmade cd-rs or mp3's to sell" - I saw Wolf Eyes last month and they were selling CDrs of improvised and live stuff. That seems to be a good use of the medium to me.

"no hard feelings...I am burnt on debates for now.." - No, no...not at all. At least it's an emotive argument...=)

Well Tommy, now days one can get pretty clsoe to the real deal without having to bust the bank. Printing on the actual cd itself(none of that crappy paper stuff) Professional looking booklets, even silver bottoms. But I guess no matter how nice something looks, its still just a cdr to some folks.

Prey tell, without spending over a thousand dollars, to $2000 dollars, tell us how one does go about getting "real" cd's made? It's just not economically viable if youre doing make em as ya ship em releases.

Now I can understand Tommy's frustrations...it really wasnt until 1998 that the advent of cdr copying became readily available, and it was until really 2000 that instant p2p of any song out there became big. So a decade ago, all people had was word of mouth, overhyped blurbs in catalogs and magazines, and so forth.

Back then it seemed like ya could get a crazy amount of people to an even smaller show, and maybe only 10-20% of those people had even ever been online. There was like 15 industrial labels in the US and abroad.

I think tommyT is distressed because he believes everyone and their goldfish has a band with 'crappy cdr releases', that myspace and all that jazz has ruined the core nature, or that only about 2/3 or 3/5ths of industrial fans still regularly buy the releases they have. But the problem is, there aint much one can do about it...and having a chronic problem of going on and on about it only serves to make one look stuck, upset, and with no real solutions. Times have changed, and there really isnt much one can do about it, especially if they are obsessed with holding on to a little morsel of what once was, and complaining about the modern state of things.

damn new fangled kids and their internets...

i have been releasing albums on cdr professionally manufacturd for nearly 10 years the discs are silver(u can by silver discs to duplicate yourself nowadays
what it does is alow people who dont have 1200 bucks to blow on 100 cds which nowadays may sit in your house. many of my albums are rereleases form the 80's that teh labels were not intereseted in and only sold 100 copies originally 25 years ago. what blows my mind is that after being on a indie or major label people think we artists have a lot of money ! the realityis in most cases that you leave a label owing money! so pro manufactired discs at 199.00 per 100 is affordable an allows people to play in the game as for myself i could care less what format its put on as long as i can hear the music so i want to ask.. for near the same price as a retail cdr a download is less quality and you get no cover art and if you lose it you buy it again and the artist cant autograph it! which i do when i sell them. this point will be long gone in a few years when the days of a hard copy are gonzo. then what will people bitch about? collectors will be a thing of the past(thank god) and prices for
music will be affordable for everyone. i think it will make for better music-
and counter the american idol concept that is the last ditch effort by teh majors to stay afloat. once in a while ill get a complaint- and if i had the budget id get 1000 made but this way ive been able to offer 30 titles we used to give them away or people bought CASSETTES! which are horriblein comparison sonic wise
some countries claim it sillegal to stock cdrs- fine! no one buys from record stores anymore anyway! with cdbaby ive seen the end of a number of resellers..again keeping teh price down and being in direct contact with the artist and fan .
germany has a law that prohibits making peronal copies but most young people have never owned a real cd but have a few thousand songs personally i dont hve an mp3 player and listen to 70's music mainly

@ USmetal: What is your band ? Myspace/Last.fm ?

70's music rules..jus sayin..

`michael

i didnt know if its cool to self promote here so i will answer your question..hehe
im matt mccourt of 80's pioneer metal band wild dogs im also dr mastermind of the sam era and the singer on mayhem burned alive, usmetal.com you can find me. im just thankful that after this many years people still want to hear teh music or need a new copy and meeting em is really cool this year we're going to germany (im the last original man standing our drummer deen plays for journey)
we'll be at headbangers open air im based in the nw of the usa. and havent sold any cds here in our hometown or west of the rockies we did chicago cmf 5 in 2005 and lots of people knew us it ws cool our gtr player robert robinson and i are working oin a new thing thats rammstein type of metal thanx for replyin.. yeah early kiss humble pie early juda spriest and scorpions and jimi hendrix i like the old stuff by teh time hairmetal took over bands like raven and ourselves it was crap for me but then i liked misfits and alot of punk bands like poison idea.
cool man.. someone complained that he didnt know it was a cdr-- so i thought id look to see what the deal is- matt mccourt

It is cool to self promote here after you have been involved in some other discussion. If you are doing stuff in the metal/industrial realm of music, you will probably find some fans here. Also you should check out http://nonelouder.com if you have not already. Welcome to Side-Line.

In response to your statements I think that CDr + digital distribution is the solution. As a band and musician that has been a round for so many years you understand the need to fortify and grow your fan base. Your old fans are not going to move away from your CDr releases, but in order to reach new fans you not only have to play live, you have to get your band name and ideas into every crevice of the earth. This is where the internet becomes a great tool. For example- if I do a search for Wild Dogs, or Matt McCourt, or USMetal, I get your website and honestly it is a confusing place with a lot of images that are broken. If you had a spot at Nonelouder or Myspace or an equivalent, I could hear within seconds what it is you do and when you do an internet search for any of the above tags you will be flooded with hits. Hits=promotion.

Right now your system is set up that I have to already know about your sound or blind buy a CDr for 9$ to get into it. This is not good for this day and age. People are impatient and will just move on.

And with the domain name of USMETAL.com you have an untapped goldmine. How many people search for those words when looking for music online everyday? Pay someone to spruce up that website, get some immediate clips on the front page, join some of those other media sites like Myspace. Embrace the technology, man!

`michael

yep ill agree with ya.. i need some help when i started usmetal 9 years ago it was just me and still is!..im with cd baby for all my releases its workin awesome and i have 8 myspaces the links are on the front...
with teh pertinent info thanx for pokin around....
organisiation isnt one of my strong points but as you can see im full of info...
im 48 hey i was on a cd called sinn the rune of odin sounds kinda like emperor,and im in the mentors.. and church of el duce...my life is a bit confusing i have alot going and for this reason.. so many people have died in teh past 10 years many younger than me i thought i better kick it in to high gear cuz ya never know when its your time and id hate to say damn i wish i would have donexxxx when so many of my contemporaries are "waiting for the right thing" or waiting to get better software(i had dreamweaver but went back to page mill an old adobe web designer)
i agree its a bit messy hehe.. but take a look at my living space on myspace it rivals einsteins desk! hahaha.. i lost alot of formatting andpics when i changed web hosts..
back to topic though i forgot to say cdr and digi distribution canb also be a good thing for major labels and teh bands who actually worktoward their goals will rise due to their efforts and THEN a major could come to take you to another level when you NEED it.. thats my hope for the state of the industry hey i also prodce a cable tv show and if you like cradle of filth i shot tme, andmotorhead and many more in the 15 years ive been doin it theyr at youtube/usmetaltv.
thanx alot for the one louder info-- have a great week im in oregon- matt

who cares? its all getting pooped into the ipod anyway.

Unless its pretty like Propergol's Renegade, its not going up on display.

i wouldent try and sell a CDr to anyone anyore, i tried that with ESNAS, and it sold well, but left a bitter taste in my music oriface.

wow ive sold a ton of cds in thepast 4 years at cd baby and many more on ebay i do have the advantage of bening in multiple genmres and have 4 albums people call "classic" metal albums where ilive though its backwards i dont sell any and our drummer is in jounrey now haha..but portland is backwards they ride bicycl;es in an effort to save the planet (while smoking cigs and tossing the butts

Cervello Elettronico has a new limited CDR out now, only because I've offered it for free download and people seem to message me wanted a physical copy(how ironic is that?) because they don't have a burner or have slow computers...

Another reason I put it on CDR its old music and frankly I don't think it's good enough quality to invest more time and money into sending it to the pressing plant.

Sorry to put out such shit hehe

many of my favorite dark ambient releases are on cdr

Damn- I made a post and side-line ate it.

Basically saying that CDr releases are a cost effective way for bands to stay productive in this environment. For everything that is put into a professional run of 500 or 1000 CD's, very little is returned. Until presses find a way to make more cost effective smaller runs bands are going to be considering professionally printed CDr releases. Hopefully this means bands will use that extra money on better designs and ideas.

`michael

@Matt-usmetal- I found your stuff at last.fm
http://www.last.fm/music/Wild+Dogs

This old stuff of yours is very cool.

Also, your myspace for wild dogs says it is deleted.

`michael

In the near future almost all physical media in this scene will be limited quantity cdrs.

The days of the pro-pressed real CD in this scene are almost over. For many reasons... The economy here in the usa is going to hell. Fewer people are able to afford $15 or more for a cd. Fewer labels are able to afford having real cds pressed. Labels are also having a harder time selling more that 500 units. Between the current state of this fucked up economy & the MP3 revolution the days of the real pressed CD are almost over.

Get used to it people, because the future is files & CD-Rs

There's enough of a subculture for labels to release a limited amount of real CD's(1,000 copies). Labels just need to make a better choice of investment in artists.

i agree thankyou ive been doing this this way for many years!...
it used to be a "drug dealer would pay for your cds and then youd seenothing!no with diskfaktory.com(not mispelled you can do it yourself..
if you DONT make it available on mp3 the hard copies sell....at cdbaby...
people will have to get used to it thebusiness isnt about teh consumer and their "standards" its about what the company puts out - when mcdonalds puts out a sandwich... who complains about the bun??no one cuz thats just what you get-- life is a hamburger i actuallhave a cd called sin sandwich...

Cheapest place I've found in the UK will do glass master replication, full colour prints on your CD, inlay, booklet and jewel case printing for $1.20 per unit on 1000 units. http://www.discusgroup.co.uk/cd-pressing.htm

And prices include the creation of a glass master...

That somehow, does not sound expensive to me... Incidentally, their CD-R runs are exactly the same price.

It's all the added fluff that goes with it that's expensive...

Worked on several releases with Arvato Digital (formerly Sonopress). Check them out if you are considering a decent sized run. Quality is super-high, price not cheap but totally reasonable:

http://www.arvatodigitalservices.com/en/industries/

Long live the album format ... it's dying out, but there are enough people around who want to keep making them, despite the fact no-one seems to buy 'em!

http://rendition.disuye.com