Kids?



;)

Everyone's kid to me. I call my 55 year old uncle kid. ;)

Just messin' with ya. Welcome to the forum.
Interested to hear what's asked, and your responses.

Honestly, that bitterness is well-justified. I just spent the past two or three months trying to book what would be an awesome industrial show in Chicago and absolutely everything I tried fell through. It's extremely frustrating when you present venues with references from other venues pertaining to the draw of your other nights, information about the bands you want to book and evidence of their popularity, and a very professional manifesto for your intentions, and the reply you get is essentially, "Well, this sounds like it would be cool, but we can make a lot more off of our bar if we do indie rock or house nights." I know it's business on their end, but that sure as shit doesn't mean I have to like it.

and the next time I get a "Your comment cannot be posted at this time" message, I am flying to Belgium, walking into the Side-Line office and pitching the server straight out the window.

mr. pathogen

In business, I don't think bitterness is ever justified. I can't say that I never fall victim to it myself but if you walk into a meeting with a real attitude, the next guy's going to get his show and you're not. It doesn't matter what you've got in the hole.

My advice to you is to stick to the venues you know and try again later. And, while I don't know the specifics of the show you were trying to do, I'd question the wisdom of bringing numbers from one venue to another. Crowds vary from club to club and, in my experience, you're better off finding out what works in one place and taking a crowbar to that formula to make it fit rather than rotating spaces every couple of months. If a bar makes their money on indie and are known as an indie bar, they have no reason to deviate from that.

From a bar standpoint, the venue did what they had to do to stay open. Next time you pitch a show, get chummy with the manager and find out what your bar numbers were - that's a lot better than attendance for selling yourself. Or start out doing smaller things on weeknights at that venue to prove yourself. Be humble / realistic and appropriate doors will open for you.

One thing that may give you a bit of an edge is to pitch shows in a way that the venue will understand, not in the way you'll see it. You have to market to them as much as the audience. If a venue's an indie venue, bring them a show that has some appeal to their current audience. There are bands who'd do well playing with electrohouse DJs and, if that's what it means you have to do to get your show in the first time, do it.

this is a few years old but i think all the data is still relavant, enjoy

********************************CLUBS 101*****************************
This email thread conversation is a sloppy crash course on running night clubs.
It is in response to a series of questions about running a club, having bands play, costs, promotion, ect.
The dilogue is from an email thread on the Kontrol Faktory rivethed list.
I hope it is as informative for you as it was therapudic for us to write.
Views expressed are from personal experience. YMMV.
********************************CLUBS 101*****************************

http://brainwashaudio.com/stevil/clubs101.txt

Snowhaus: I've been promoting for years now, and all the bands I've worked with (maybe with one or two exceptions) can attest to my professionalism. So I don't really think I have any use for being the consummate professional when I'm bullshitting with online friends on an internet forum. People always seem cloying, obnoxious brown-nosers when they refuse to say anything that won't violate the party line. If the commonly-accepted truism that actions speak louder than words holds water, then I don't think anyone with their head not firmly stuck up their ass can say I'm a bad promoter because I'm snarky online.

I refuse to be a promoter 100% of my waking life, in short, because that would make me a humorless fuckwit. :)

As for mixing up the genres in order to get a venue, I personally think that's a bad idea because I know my patrons pretty well. I promote mostly aggressive music, so if I brought Winterkalte and Morgenstern over, for instance, and threw in a house DJ, no matter how talented that DJ would be, all the people who came for the bands would react with, "I didn't come here for this techno bullshit" or something similar. I'd rather not do a show at all than do it in a way that would piss off the people who come to my nights, honestly.

That's some more bitter and aggressive stuff. Penultimate advice for putting on events (i.e. doing what I do): if you're not having fun, quit. Immediately. Take a break for a couple of months then try again.

Still, there's a good point in there.

Never pay to use a venue. If you can't get a bar / ticket split where you get the tickets with a possible (low) rip for the venue and the house gets bar, walk. If the venue must take a cut, only let them have money for under 21s and only if you think there will be a significant number of non-drinkers in the house. This can be a good loyalty builder early on for a regular event - an extra 400 dollars from the door can make or break a night on the venue's end and its nothing out of your pocket. In my markets, underaged patrons are used to paying a surcharge. That obviously helps.

"Never pay to use a venue. If you can't get a bar / ticket split where you get the tickets with a possible (low) rip for the venue and the house gets bar, walk."

You'd never put on a night here, if that was the case. Very few venues here (Scotland) are free and the ones that are will take 30/40 people max.

mr. pathogen

Can we keep this thread constructive instead of being defensive? I have no idea who you are, we'll probably never meet, and I have no interest or care in the types of acts you seem to primarily present. Don't take it personally. I don't know or care about your ability as a promoter and it has no bearing on the dialogue I'm trying to foster. Perpetual "booking shows sucks, bands are all assholes, clubs are run by cokehead douchebags" talk isn't constructive.

As for the substance of your post, I don't think trying to bring a band with no or little US distribution / promotion to a mainstream indie-esque venue in Chicago is the best idea without some kind of catering to a broader audience. This is the reality of the business. Anything you say to them about the supposed popularity of the band is heresay and your manifesto, while sounding "cool," is a turnoff. Club owners understand money and don't really care about your overreaching goals because they want that club to be there after you get tired of flogging the horse. Give them numbers, research, and press instead. A club has no obligation to represent the music that you like because a club is not a charitable organization. Positing an extreme example (a band like Winterkalte vs a house DJ) doesn't invalidate what I said. Acts like Justice are playing a similar brand of heavily distorted dance music in Madison Square Garden - why ghettoize yourself in an effort to get scene cred? It benefits everyone - the band, your wallet, the club, your patrons (by giving them continuing options) - to make your event accessible and successful. If your city is so starved for choice, do you have an honest reason to think people are *not* going to see Winterkalte because there's an opener or afterparty that incorporates a broader palette of music? If so, they're not a profitable audience and its no wonder a club doesn't want to waste a night.

Psykick Vampyr

I think the goal of getting as close to that deal as possible is something every promoter should keep in mind. If you can't get near that deal in your city, don't promote in your city. Businesses such as mine exist where it is economical and there exists an opportunity for profit. Not every market can accomodate a promotions company and that's okay.

"Never pay to use a venue. If you can't get a bar / ticket split where you get the tickets with a possible (low) rip for the venue and the house gets bar, walk."

that mentality is regualted to coffee shops & total dives out here. if you want a decent venue in socal expect the owners costs to come out of your "rental fee". unless you've really buddied up with an owner, this is your venture not theirs.

Jesus, you call that bitter? I was being downright polite. I think you've got some serious misconceptions about the people you're talking to here.

I was responding to Stevil's post, not yours. I think painting all club security personnel as virtual rapists, for example, is bitter, yes.

Once again, however, I wasn't being defensive. I was trying to communicate to you that you're probably not going to be able to relate to how events are promoted in industrial. Likewise, I neither know nor care about you either, but I can tell you now that if your intention is to come onto a board you've never posted to before with a post pertaining to promoting in a subculture that you admit you only dabble in at best and your best point is "You're all negative assholes and you're doing it wrong," then this thread is going to go about as well as catching thrown hammers with your teeth.

mr. pathogen

I think the idea that the music you're into is somehow special and exists outside the normal rules of economics, commerce, and how the business of promotions is run hurts you. But fair enough. I just can't say as I've ever enjoyed an act so much to the point that I was willing to go to bat for them but would then be stymied because I couldn't have exactly my way. My advice isn't for you if that's the case.

I'm still reading the thread if anyone has any questions!

well, I could pretty easily make the argument that economics is at best a shell game to begin with, but seriously, why did you start this thread? How did you come to the forum? What is your purpose for being here? Write it off as that ghastly bitterness, but I don't exactly smell pure-intentioned altruism here.

mr. pathogen

I have no reason for doing this other than a desire to have a discussion and share knowledge. If you, as a reader of the forum, have no interest in discussing or asking questions of me, you're welcome to read another thread. There seem to be quite a few here.

dmyer and I were discussing the gap between his various projects and their potential markets based on two separate experiences of mine trying to acquire holds for tours. I felt that opening up said discussion to this forum, which he mentioned, would be potentially informative for someone.

@Mr.pathogen. i think i know what show you were talking about. QQ

mr. pathogen

And, incidentally, please volunteer your own knowledge rather than impugning me. How do you look for opening acts? Without naming names, which is kind of declasse, what things do you look out for when dealing with booking agents? What are common contract foils for you? If you have shortfalls, where do they typically come from: low attendance or other factors?

i for one would lov to hear what other scens are doing because ours is doing something wrong.

I have stated b4 that our scene also does the worst job of promoting our music and live events to the high school/college crowd that i can think of. This has to change ppl!!!!!!!!!

not going to jump into most of this, but i can say i've been promoting successful shows for a while now, and you NEVER get a venue for free in Los Angeles, especially for a concert.

That said, I've paid as little as $400 or as much as $6000 for my venue, and managed to break even or turn a profit every time. It really is more a matter of knowing your audience more than anything else.

I'm just guessing here but I think some of these issues are very city /country specific .. nyc / chicago / london / paris / la are likely to be different from philly / phoenix / austin which are likely to be different from college towns (madison etc) which are likely to be different from small towns like kansas city, omaha (etc).

Snowhaus where are you? Google thinks you are in Columbia South Carolina. I don't know anything about Columbia South Carolina but its probably a tad different from Chicago :)

Oh oh, don't tell Pathogen he's wrong, now you've got an intellectually bland fight on your hands!

mr snowhaus

welcome to side-line, sir, you adding some substance to these threads

@ Snowhaus Booking

"mr. pathogen

Can we keep this thread constructive instead of being defensive?"


Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge to us on this forum about the industry of show promoting. In good turn, let me return the favour by sharing some detailed knowledge with you on pathogen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_retentive

vuxnut: srsly, it'd be a stellar show but I just plain cannot get a venue to commit to it. It's maddening.

psychopomp: I don't have a problem with being wrong, I just love it when I'm right and you're not :)

Dear mainstream promoter,

Why have the college loan rates soard over the past 5 years? The increase in repayments on student loans is at an all time high. Whats a good company that can offer a locked, fixed in rate for students looking to consolidate loans? Thank you!

Signed,

Concerned Graduate

dasbunker

We could probably both agree that Los Angeles is not representative of most markets in the US. That said, I have fond memories of The Smell and The Echo but, unfortunately, never had the opportunity to check out your club while I was there. I hope to rectify that one of these days!

bloosqr

The bits of the business that I'm interested in discussing are universal. I'm not overly interested in debating the minutiae of "why my event not work!!!" because that's up to the promoter. I don't think having a bad attitude about it helps any, though. I won't be responding to any of that in the future, I suppose! But if anyone has any questions about how to deal with / get on the radar of booking agencies, how to tour, or other broader sorts of issues, I've still got a few hours to kill.

Seraphin

Actually, Stafford Loans haven't "risen." In 2006, they adopted a fixed rate, which is currently 6.8%, to save on nasty surprises down the road for students who found their payments suddenly tripling due to variances in treasury bills (which were the basis for the adjustable rate). The days of 4.06% are behind us, unfortunately, but it was either fixed rate or much higher "bait and switch" rates for recent graduates.

@ mr. pathogen

"psychopomp: I don't have a problem with being wrong, I just love it when I'm right and you're not :)"


I don't think you got that quite right, why don't you expand that a little to say "but only when there are girls around on the forum and I can try and prove my manliness with a dictionary."

psychopomp: man, you're off the damn deep end with that one.

Snowhaus: I think Nietzsche had something to say about the fallibility of the concept of universal constants, but I don't really have the resources to paw through his stuff to find it. However, I still think it's a very serious mistake to say that what works for you is automatically going to work for us (especially since you've been promoting for five years, according to you, in a much more lucrative market). Not to call your credibility into question, but some of the people on this board have been promoting for twice as long as you have been and in this scene specifically. What exactly makes you think you know something we don't?

@Snowhaus Booking

What do you feed the bands? When do you feed them Red Lobster, a sandwich buffett, or just give a $5 in McDonald gift certificates?

FORTY SANDWICHES

[observations, nothing personal]

Snowhaus, you jumped into this forum, quoting one of it's long-time members, and then get irked when he gets irked? You tell him to not take it personally, but brought him into this personally in your first post here. Hmm... Just sayin'. :|
Sorry if someone pointed this out already - I've only had time to quick-skim the thread.

Also, we find it best to somehow make sure when we're addressing someone's comments here that we either quote them or address them with their name. Saves confusion.

Lastly, offering up your experience can be a valuable thing. But be careful not to put forth the attitude that you're the font of knowledge, the be-all-end-all. Even if that's not your intent, without inflection, body langage and facial expression, it's easy to misunderstand or be misunderstood.

[/observations, nothing personal]

AETiglathPZ

I satisfy rider requirements and, when they're really loose, I provide a home cooked meal based on stated preferences of bands. I attended some initial courses leading to culinary school and have earned some very high praise from touring bands due to meal provisions. I buy disposable catering trays and bring an entree with two sides, a salad course, and some kind of dessert to most shows unless something else is called for. When you make the jump to full or "mostly" time (I'll confess to the odd temp job in slow seasons), you end up with more time to cook than money to provide catering with. I also tend to pass on "rockstar treatment" bookings.

mr. pathogen

If you don't want my advice, discard it or don't read it! YMMV, etc.

Snowhaus: I think my questions are perfectly reasonable. Please address them.

Out Out: Thanks, I'm glad I didn't seem completely out of line by being annoyed.

Out Out

As stated in firstpost,

"I am not a voice of authority, I'm just a perspective. Please keep that in mind if you disagree with me."

I'm not going to speak with less vigor because of that. My goal is to discuss here, not step around egos. Cursing the small-mindedness of "mainstream crowds" while then being yourself unwilling to embrace differences means very little ... its still tyranny of some sort of majority, except in this case it comes at the expense of the viability of an event. I just think that's a shame.

mr. pathogen

I'm not here to have a flamewar with you, I'm here to open up a discussion. I hope its one that continues after I leave. But either contribute to the thread with what you do differently and how that affects your metrics for success, as I invited you to, or you're welcome to read other threads on this board. If you have a personal matter outside the context of this discussion, you can take it up with me in private. Thanks!

what's the trouble with booking shows and running nights in this scene?

simple. it's a ridiculously small, elitist, niche group that would rather spend their money on hair extensions and vinyl to further their internet "modeling" career than to go out and see some band they've only vaguely heard of. which is quite unlike punk/metal/hardcore/indie/hippie kids who will go to shows simply for the sake of going to shows because that's where the action is and that's what it's all about for them.

the scene doesn't like variety, it doesn't like outsiders, it doesn't even really like itself. therefore it repels newcomers, because everyone involved has such a low self-image to begin with that they start off under the assumption that everyone at "the club" hates them because they won't look you in the eye or speak with you. but really they just think you hate them too.

if you can get past that, don't worry, because you'll be alienated anyway by other scene veterans with their undying barrage of drama, gossip and catty attitudes. it will only be a matter of time before you get to the point where you just don't feel like showing up anymore. don't worry, you'll be chastised for that too.

eventually, if you have really thick skin, or just tend to walk through life oblivious to things (like unending drama, hurricanes, imploding buildings, and napalm) then you may even become a 'promoter' yourself. because the line between club goer and promoter in this scene is about as thin as the lipliner on every pouty-lipped self-appointed 'gothic' covergirl who thinks she's too cool for the dancefloor. years will pass (or possibly only a few hours) and you'll realize how much money you've lost, how many people hate you (and think they could do a better job than you), and how much of your life you've wasted wallowing in all this shit. until one day you just grow so damn frustrated with it all that you give up, pack it in and start listening to reggae.

unless you're in a gigantic city (new york, l.a., chicago, philly, toronto...) you don't even have snowball's chance in hell of drawing enough people to cover the guarantee, rider, room, promotion, and club fees and requirements. but you fool yourself into thinking you do. you freak out when a popular band in "the scene" demands a $1,000 guarantee, but fail to realize that some schmuck hardcore band up the block that you've never heard of is getting a $5,000 guarantee to play a club the same size.

that's the reality. that's why it doesn't work. and that's why it sucks.

can i have a cookie now?

@Snowhaus: still, there are ways of engaging people on a forum, especially when you're brand new there, that are, shall we say, a little less abrasive.

People here know that I don't pull my punches when I speak of something that is important to me. But I try to maintain a sense of levity, of politeness, of respect - even when those I'm discussing with might be irritating or annoying to me.

Please understand that I don't expect you to speak with less vigor - you should always speak your mind - but tone, choice of wording, prosaic inflection if you will, are paramount if you're gonna gain any respect.

Your disclaimer in your first post was noted, but your direct quotations - with a tone that really set up the "quotees" to defend themselves - kinda countered that intent. Hence what I was saying about being careful not to misunderstand or be misunderstood.

Again, you're brand new here - just some friendly advice. I'm not trying to attack you in any way, if that's not clear. You've got some interesting things to say...

(And while I was ribbing you about the "kids" thing - I gotta be frank, that's not the best foot forward in introducing you to an established forum...)

doomsdayvirus

you freak out when a popular band in "the scene" demands a $1,000 guarantee, but fail to realize that some schmuck hardcore band up the block that you've never heard of is getting a $5,000 guarantee to play a club the same size.

Most of those "Myspace band" packages (featuring 3-5 bands) go for about a third of that, actually. And by that, I mean bands who are on FUSE / MTV regularly, etc. I don't know any hardcore band who gets a 5k guarantee off the top of my head unless they're on a major label ... and even then, I know of few.

In the end, its not about if you've heard of a band. Its if other people have. Unless you want a really expensive hobby. I'll confess to having spent the better part of a month's pay on a vanity booking before.

Out Out

As I said to mr. pathogen, unless it pertains to the topic at hand, you're invited to take this conversation private! I think this thread should stay on track as well as possible.

So, on the subject of my last post, what works as far as media exposure goes for people here? Personally, I find the local college station to be an invaluable resource. Not for its broadcast power, which is of dubious value, but for its staff of music fans who are already spending hours and hours exposing music they like to the world. I'm also blessed with two free weekly papers in my home town with dueling music columns which are both equally accessible and friendly to show mentions - whatever their style. On a slow week, I've had a long form noise rock trio as a cover story before.

@Showhaus: It's an open forum, with a reputation for self-moderating. And as you brought a couple of forum members personally into this thread in your first post, I see no reason to take it private. And, as threads are conversations, and conversations take tangents... but sure, the overall track of this thread should stay on-course. Don't let me impede you. I was just trying to be helpful, to make the whole thread more constructive, with a better tone, for all. Oh well. :\



So, on-topic, what are your feelings of booking agents or promoters not upholding their ends of a contractual guarantee at the end of the show? Handing over less money than what was promised and then saying "so sue me"? How should this be handled?

editbutton: Snowhaus, not Showhaus. Sorry for the typo.

I was responding to Stevil's post, not yours. I think painting all club security personnel as virtual rapists, for example, is bitter, yes.

to give it some perspective, the bulk of that thread was written by very bitter EX-promoters who are very 'over' the drama & general politics that come with running a show not long after shutting down clubs that were considered "successful" for a time in southern california.
it was definitely not written to sell people on the idea of promoting or white wash it in any way. it is a bare bones discussion of the business end & the problems you'll run into, so worst case scenarios tend to be addressed more often than positive stories about nights that everybody had a blast & everything went off without a hitch.

Out Out

Just to clear up nomenclature,
Agent/Booking Agent = Someone who gets you shows and takes a cut. They solicit bookings, they don't do not book.
Promoter/Booker = The person who actually sets up and executes the event contract.

Functionally, I realize its hard to do so, but this is why having an established agent can be beneficial - the agent exists to execute and enforce the contract as signed and can pursue legal action on your behalf. If the contract is between the band and the promoter/booker, its up to the band to enforce it. Then it gets difficult.

At the very least, never play for that person again. Insert language in your contract that establishes legal venue as your home county if you're worried about being able to pursue action against people who stiff you. Talk to your lawyer about that. You'll probably need to establish your band as a partnership business before doing any of this, incidentally, but, if you're playing frequently or touring, I don't see why you wouldn't. But really, check out a promoter before setting up shows with them. Ask for references - I keep a show "resume" with references, bands and agents, included for people who request it. Follow through, talk to the band/agent and ask about that person.

Again, another reason to get your own agent. Agents do all this vetting work for you and have a more aggregate show calendar that enables them to have more frequent working relationships with any one individual. A venue can change hands between two gigs in the same year, a couple of months apart, and you won't know until you show up and realize you don't recognize "your guy" there.

Stevil

That's fair enough and I certainly understand. As I said, though, I just don't think that tone is encouraging for first time or new promoters - the people who are the ones most likely to benefit from that information. I do appreciate that you broke down what the various jobs at a club are and the difference between a promoter and a venue owner, however! I've had bands/DJs who often don't understand that I'm not a salaried employee of the club. That can lead to tension. Its easy, on a promoter's behalf, to just assume that everyone knows that.

@Snowhaus: Thanks - pretty much what I knew, but useful info to have posted. My personal experience with this was in 1994, so it's kinda water under the bridge.

So, on-topic, what are your feelings of booking agents or promoters not upholding their ends of a contractual guarantee at the end of the show? Handing over less money than what was promised and then saying "so sue me"? How should this be handled?

1. get all your shit out of the said venue.
2. go back in.
3. break shit.
4. leave.
5. quickly.

works every time.

=)

Heh - "vanity booking" - I like that term. Guess what. Just about EVERY booking in North America in this scene is a vanity booking.

I know promoters that haven't made money on an act in 10 years of "business". Even on bands like Combichrist. Most promoters in our scene just want to break even.

Also, it's true. If I go to an event, I sure as hell don't want to hear any techno or house. The reason that pisses patrons off is because there are over 9000 of those nights in any given city, and it's hard enough as it is to find industrial music out there. We like that there are 1 or 2 places we can actually go for that, so when even that gets taken away, people are not impressed.

i've had bands/DJs who often don't understand that I'm not a salaried employee of the club.

the patrons tend to think that way as well, which in part is what lead to the discussion in the first place.


I just don't think that tone is encouraging for first time or new promoters - the people who are the ones most likely to benefit from that information.

like i said in the header, it's just a thread from an old email forum, (much like this discussion here) so it wasnt really crafted as a friendly 'how to'. i think it's good for people new to promotion to be prepared for the negatives as well as the positive. creepy security guards are a reality out here. Views expressed are from personal experience. YMMV.

rstk

What about "scene friendly" producers like Client, Miss Kittin, or Terrence Fixmer? There's a whole wide variety of that and not all of it is available in any given city. For example, my region, unless you're into breakbeats, you lack options.

Are you anti-DJ in general?

rstk

In parallel to that, would you not go to a show because there was an afterparty involving DJs playing material like that?

@doomsdayvirus: I had to be, er, restrained by my bandmate from squashing the short little twerp for shorting us after making us wait for hours to even get our money - all before driving home for 4+ hours in the middle of the night in a January ice storm. The memory is still a little vivid, actually. :\

i had to be, er, restrained by my bandmate from squashing the short little twerp for shorting us after making us wait for hours to even get our money

should've squashed em. the world would be a better place.

@out out

you're lucky. my bandmates wouldn't have just encouraged me, they'd haved jumped in and we'd all be in jail!

Sorry the locality issue was w/ regards to venues asking for $$ to use that venue or even convincing a venue to take a chance on a band. I am guessing this is very locality specific, with the larger cities more likely to do being uptight (because of their own overhead costs ) than a small town. I am suggesting that perhaps what may work for Columbia SC (in your case) may not work for Chicago (in Pathogen's case) for example.

@Stevil: I've heard horror stories about that little asswipe since. Perhaps, perhaps. But no, I'm glad it worked out without me pummeling him. I can hold my head a touch higher, even though I had to be, er, discouraged. I'm basically a pacifist (just don't threaten me or my family - that goes for my dog, too) and I think that would've haunted me...

@doomsdayvirus: I found it funny, actually, as the guy holding me back is usually a little more, er, trigger-happy. In the best of ways, of course. :)

I think that would've haunted me...

i'm sure you could have found a way to rationalize ;)

bloosqr: yeah, there's bound to be a world of difference. In Chicago, we have many factors that I strongly doubt that Columbia, South Carolina has to deal with. For instance, it's very difficult to get people to go out to new events and shows because of Chicago's rather flamboyant history with industrial music. You may think that its status as a landmark of American industrial music might make it easy to work in, but a huge amount of the people that were in the gigantic scene of the '80s and '90s have, as people tend to do, gotten old. Plus, as the scene at large has changed into a much more electronics-heavy format, which embitters all the old scenesters who loved to thrash around to guitar-driven coldwave and industrial rock. Result: They don't go out, unless it's an "I Love the '80s" industrial-of-yesteryear retrospective or a whopper of a show, like KMFDM or, to a lesser degree, VNV Nation.

The younger generation is not manifesting for a few reasons. One, as has been discussed many, MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY FOUR HUNDRED BABIES times, industrial and goth are not the hot alternative style and subculture of the moment. Indie rock, emo, hipster electro and all that are grabbing up the young'uns wholesale. That's just how trends operate, though, and we can't really fairly give any of those genres guff for stealing a spotlight we enjoyed for years until "goth" became synonymous with "fruitcake gonna shoot yo skool up." In Chicago particularly, the younger generation has a big problem, as fellow Chicagoan maschinetheist can attest to, if he reads this. Chicago's City Council is not friends with the city's nightlife. Licensing is extremely strict and enforced mostly when they feel like it, which can be good or bad. On one hand, shithouse little bars can operate as clubs if they can fly under the radar, but on the other hand, you can get slapped with hefty fines after TWENTY YEARS of operating without the several licenses necessary to run a nightclub if the Council is angry at you, as happened to one club here.

So, Chicago can be very hard to work in. Yes, I am annoyed that venues who have spent thousands of dollars on these ridiculous licenses and need to pack them with Heineken-swilling yokels to make ends meet as a result feel they have no reason to take risks. No, I don't feel that I should watch my mouth about it everywhere I go. No, I'm not going to be happy when some random guy shows up and says, "Hey, kids! Time for a lecture! Don't be like Mister Bitterpants here!" and then gets in my face about being defensive after I take issue with being blatantly singled out.

Snowhaus: I'm glad that booking 2 Live Crew is so easy for you in Columbia, South Carolina, which none of us know about at all in regards to demographics and venue accessibility and attitude, but I still fail to see how your five years of experience warrant your coming onto a board, offering no credentials or evidence as to your qualifications, and deciding it's 20 questions times with the goth kids. So far you've mostly been pompous, condescending and self-righteous.

Oh, and if you DON'T want to start a flamewar with someone, don't criticize them in your initial post. It's called action and reaction. Look it up.

There, see? I don't think I even even swore once. Look how well-behaved I am. :P

=D

Actually, no, not for that little money. Principle, perhaps. Seems he got some karma later on, something about a drunk driving thing, IIRC, so it's just as well. I can live with my inaction, actually, just fine. (Restrained or not - I don't actually know if I would have hit him anyhow, but I was stopped as I was approaching him, cursing and pulling my arm back as if to punch...)

i think the long and short of this, snowhaus, is that your ideas are sound and work well in your market, but many of them are isolated to your market. you're right to say that dasbunker's experiences in LA are atypical of the rest of the country to some extent (and keep in mind that half the people on this forum are in europe,) but they're a lot closer to "typical" than yours. all promoters in every city i've played in (and i can count at least 20 in the US off the top of my head) have had to pay for their venues. i've never played in south carolina, and i'd be willing to believe it's different there.


furthermore, dude, have you read this forum? at all? are you seriously asking us to stop acting like douchebags? we do this intentionally here. except for psychopomp, who can't help it. don't ever ask to hear knowledge everyone yields.

Snowhaus: I'm glad that booking 2 Live Crew is so easy for you in Columbia, South Carolina...

priceless.

game.

side-line.

^
|

in reference to snowhaus's disappearance.

Do I get a prize? :D

he didn't disappear, he just changed his screenname.

SHUT UP DAMN IT. I WANT MY PRIZE.

your prize is a date with PDK.


ENJOY, FUCKER

YOU SON OF A BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITCH

wait, does that mean i'll make him uncomfortable with his sexuality (again) and make Haywire jealous? This might be worth it!

@mr. pathogen

right after i get my cookie.

Snowhaus wrote:

Hey kids, [...]

That brings an interesting question ... one that I've been answering relentlessly here...

Should Industrial be promoted the same was as other indie genres ? I think not...

I think it would be a good idea to get out of the ''venue/club'' scene.

Going back to a rave structure would ultimately be more profitable and fun. This is a bit what's happening with festivals... consolidate all events into a big, all inclusive one.

consolidate all events into a big, all inclusive one.

one big walmart of music?

@Snowhaus Booking, um, if still listening.

Thanks for answering my question.


One big problem with Chicago is that it is a 21+ city. Most small to moderate size venues are 21+. You talking around House of Blues size if you want All-Ages or 18+(21+ to drink). That hurts your draw.

I can only think of one Cabaret liscense venue in Chicago that would fit the shows Pathogen throws and that is on the South Side.

So basically, unless your promoting KMFDM, Combi sized bands you kindoff screwed if you want to bring in the kiddies. Your also lucky to bring in 100 people without the kiddies. So between a rock and a another rock.

wow....half a day.....it took half a day for you bastards to run off the new guy.

damn you guys are good.

we're like the bad news bears of internet forums.

I was kinda hoping snowhaus would stick around a little longer. I mean, I thought this thread was going somewhere good, ya know? But alas, s/he was just another hit-and-run sindaddy/adamkiger/whatever troll/etc.

*shrugs*

Well contrarily to sindaddy/adamdkieger Snowhaus brought a good point and a valid question.

I stayed polite. It wasn't easy. :\

@out out

wanna fight?

@doomsdayvirus: naaah - my bandmate's holding me back.

@out out

that's alright. i don't either.

maybe some other time.

...
from talking to the mainstreem crew's lampies, sage hands, rodies, toor managers ets... hows business now compaired with a few years back?... better, worse, the same, more shows, less shows?

Well, that's just great. I had some questions for Snowhaus that might've helped me in my position of putting on bands but, no, you guys had to fuck them off. Good job.

"people dont like your music. Im a business man, heres the WORD".

Congratulations sherlock. No one likes us.

We dont care.

It's okay, he was a normal person.

While I agree with Psykick Vampyr I have to admit, Virul3nt's post above me made me Lulz!

Are you sure he just didn't change his username?

He only needs to do it another 84579437375X10^2 times to top witchy.

Psykick Vampyr: I think he did that himself with establishing himself as a condescending dolt as soon as he got here. You come off like an asshole, don't be surprised if people think you are one and all that.

Condescending or not, I would've liked the chance to ask some questions before they legged it.

And, personally, I don't find "I'm not here to have a flamewar with you, I'm here to open up a discussion. I hope its one that continues after I leave. But either contribute to the thread with what you do differently and how that affects your metrics for success, as I invited you to, or you're welcome to read other threads on this board. If you have a personal matter outside the context of this discussion, you can take it up with me in private. Thanks!" that condescending. Some of your posts, on the other hand, could've had the aggression turned down slightly.

As I said to him, saying "I don't want to start a flamewar with you" after singling me out as soon as he got here kind of invalidates the statement.

Them "inviting" us to read other threads, or "take it private" was pretty condescending, if you ask me. As is demanding that tangents be disallowed from the thread. Brand new to the forum, and making "rules"? Really now. If I did that when I first joined here I would have been strung up by my cyber hamstrings.

Sure, some of the responses people had were a little aggressive, but I maintain they set the tone at the outset. And, like I said, I worked hard at staying polite even though I was kinda put off right away. (Yes, again, I did rib them for the "kids" thing - but again, that was part of their tone from the outset...)

@ Pathogen,

He used a quote from you to explain his position. If you think that's "singling out" then you've proved his point about bitterness, IMHO.

@ Out Out

As is demanding that tangents be disallowed from the thread.

I think that's pretty sensible in a thread on a particular topic, especially on a forum that isn't moderated.

I think the whole thing smacked off "this is our forum, don't tell us what to do" (not on everyone's behalf, of course) and it irritated me.

Well, considering it is our forum and he was telling us what to do, I don't consider it particularly uncalled for. This struck me as much different from some new person starting a "Hey everyone, I'm new to the board" thread and being humiliated and driven off. He introduced himself to us by quoting established members of the board in a negative light, then talked down to anyone who disagreed with him and told us to go somewhere else if we didn't like what he had to say. Even after I asked him honest questions, he told me to go read other threads. I consider that a pretty rude way to introduce yourself to an audience you're ostensibly here to "help," and I don't think the reaction was out of line.

Still, he does have a Myspace account here: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=335485560

At least I assume that's him. So you can still ask him questions.

psykick: i was interested in hearing what he had to say as well, but he was seriously being a tool, if you read the whole thread. obviously pathogen's responses were aggressive and not actively -polite- per se, but dude. this is side-line. come on. if the guy came here looking for pandering and boot-licking, or even common decency, he's even more of a clueless fuck than he already seemed. also, the man knows nothing. i have friends who book the same kinds of acts here in san francisco, and a huge percentage of what he was saying was utter bullshit that may apply in BFE south carolina, but is obviously nuts anywhere else.

in conclusion, libya is a land of contrasts.

But demanding (effectively, by "inviting" us to go to other threads)? I mean, politely asking... sure. Makes sense to me. But the whole "let's take it private" thing? Come on. The tone of that is condescending to me. And, yes, I looked - no email was available on their profile to take it private anyhow! Again, if I had acted that way when I first got here I would have been taken apart far more than they were, I suspect...

I tried to basically help them more smoothly interact as a new member - I really wasn't trying to shoo them off - and got a pat on the head. Whatever.

Well, I didn't really see the arrogance and "looking for pandering" that others obviously did. Whatevs.

It's just another episode in my decreasing appreciation of this forum, I guess.

incidentally, i would like to note my displeasure at the fact that nobody noticed my subtle DEATHKEYing of the OP in my first comment.

@structurefall... it was really, really subtle.

@PV: You're lucky, perhaps in that regard, in not "hearing" the tone that a lot of us did. And again, I too am bummed of the sudden high-tailing. I think if their tone could have been eased up, they would have had a lot of interesting debates and ideas to contribute.

I gotta ask - why this forum? What made them decide to start posting, to be "helpful"? Seems a little, I dunno...

i don't really care, i'm just in it for the lulz.

it's all very simple really:



your band draws a crowd, or it doesn't



if you can draw a crowd, you can book the shows yourself, or even *gasp* talk directly to a venue



if you can't draw a crowd, you talk to promoters who will happily lose money on your behalf. (and you think i'm joking? i've probably seen 20 "scene" shows with 4 bands on the bill and under 25 people in attendance)

@ Snowhaus Booking

Call me crazy, but the experience that you are presenting does not seem to be indicative of any major metropolitan city.

There is a reason why NYC has like 2 half-assed goth/ industrial nights currently and shows are few and far between.

There is a dividing line, currently. There are no "middle of the road" venues left, at all. You are either dealing with a dive bar who does not have a cabaret license (yes, NYC requires a license for venues to be able to offer the option to be able to dance), let alone a dj set-up, stage, quailty sound, etc... No self-respecting patron would want to hang out there, let alone use the bathroom, heh.

The other end of the spectrum is the "super club". Now, you are dealing with managers (you will never meet the owner, as it's Duff from Guns N' Roses or some billionaire from Ibiza) who know that they can rent out their club 7 nights per week to the highest bidder (usually House/ Minimal Techno) parties. If you can get them to agree to a night, you need to find a way to come up with a $4,000 bar guarantee for a weeknight (weekends can rise up to $15,000) plus the actual fee for the artist, djs and the rest of your staff.

On the topic of mixing crowds, you're sure to do one really great show, your first and last. A crowd that goes to see Justice in NYC does not want to be in the same room as a bunch of "goth" kids in all black, nor do they want to hear any of the music that anyone on the board would potentially book, as it tends to be a bit left of the more standard VNV Nation fare.

I see what you are saying, and in some cities your philosophy works, but it is unfortunately not a blanket method.

Cant you guys who want to talk to him click his name and uhh, send an email message?

Hmm I guess not. I dunno; I took the thread itself to be a start of provoking people into a flamewar of sorts. Wouldnt say it started off all nice and buddy for a first time poster, shrug.

Hi, Snowhaus - welcome to the Sine-Line forum! :D


Oh wait...

It's always funny until the kids drop their industrial band, and start an emo band, and then it's just hilarious!

PS: I've seen it happen with some posers where I live and I was quite amused. Didn't tell them they sucked technoviking's cock, though.

How to make industrial mainstream: make a good looking lad like Sumez or me a star and we'll sort it out hehehe

Took 30 minutes to read all of the threads.. minus the bullshit between a few people.. there's some good content here..

I read it because our label Section 44 is starting to promote shows in Denver, Colorado USA. We brought-in And One two days ago. A very positive experience. And A23 before that. Another good show.

We will always pay for a venue. This will include their staff for lighting, sound and security. Of course, the pricing structure varies by night.. by club/venue.

Goth scene observations: Fickle.. About 1/2 of the normal crowd that's out in the regular club nights will support live music. The other 1/2 are there for the social aspects.. and don't care about ever seeing live music.. They'd prefer to hear the same 20 songs every week. Trust me. And of the 1/2 that don't support the live music.. most can't support it because they can't afford it.. They're coming-in to the regular club nights during the first hour when it's free. An interesting thought.. if they can't afford to pay to get in, why does the bar try to promote coming early (assuming people will spend more at the bar earlier) if nobody is buying anyway? Humm.. off track.

I've also found.. that you can pass out a flyer to to And One to a club goer and they'll say they don't know the band... never heard of them.. meanwhile.. their song is on at the moment and in some cases, they're dancing to it. Again proving that a lot of the crowd isn't really there for the music. They're there for the scene.. how freaky they can look, whom they can hook-up with. Depressing. But true.

I agree with the statement about younger people at the Emo shows, etc. Seen that happen. And you'd think there's cross-over with the Marilyn Manson types in the goth scene.. but not much.. the two crowds look the same.. but listen to different music entirely. Just a little cross promotional efforts there.

So, the real question.. how to better promote goth/industrial music shows? Have the older people moved away from clubs, but will come out for a live show? Will they? And if so, how do we reach them if they aren't on the forums, live journals, myspace, etc. or clubs? Our shows aren't big enough to buy advertising space usually...

Randall

Oh come on Shithaus, dont be angry. Welcome to Sideline!~

Did he not cancel his account? Or did he get the boot?

@tristraum

lots of good points there. i'm afraid you may resurrect this thread and make it useful... wait... probably not. i forgot where i was for a second!

these crowds have to be the most fickle in the entire music industry. i swear. sometimes you book a well-known band and the place is packed. other times you're lucky to escape and still be able to pay your phone bill.

it seems like that 1/2 of the crowd that doesn't like to pay to get in also likes to get drunk before they arrive, thus lowering their costs even more. yet everyone's so afraid of alienating them. why? they bring no monetary value to your night or the bar at all.

but they fill the place out and make it look good though. so maybe a crowd attracts a crowd? if those non-paying customers weren't there, would the same amount of paying customers actually show up?

it really is very hard to justify advertising for these shows in any sort of legitimate publication. even the local artfag weeklys charge a fortune for 1/8 of a page.

but you have to wonder if a radio spot or print ad would bring in some more non-scene people though, if just out of curiousity. or high school kids who think the outfits in the ad look cool. yes, seriously. you just have to weigh the increased revenue from those extra people against the increased cost to advertise to them. i'm not sure it would pay for itself unless you advertised maybe 5-10 shows in one 1/4 page ad to help dillute the costs a bit.

as for industrial/goth/emo crossover, look at the crowds the birthday massacre is drawing. i can't think of many other examples right now that are garnering that sort of cross-section.

@ doomsdayvirus

If they started hearing more electro-industrial on college & Indie radio... the turnout would increase. imho.

@helosix

how do we make that happen?

I am working on it.... now if I can only convince some decent labels and bands to try. Seems they underestimate themselves. :)

@helosix

i'll czech that out when i get home.

myspace = bl0x0rzD at w3rk.

@ doomsdayvirus

I know what you mean.

@helosix has a point I think!

@ malfunct

What's that? That they underestimate themselves? I sure think so, many of the artists in this scene make some quality music. However, both the labels and artists think they have no chance at the US indie charts (Such as the CMJ RPM, which is dance, electronic-industrial friendly). They are wrong...

maybe they don't want to gain listeners/fans in the US market??

Hey kids,

I'm not the head DJ of a goth night, I'm a regular "mainstream" show promoter. I have, either through my company or as a former employee at others, worked with bands as varied as Hot Hot Heat, Dilana Robichaux from Rock Star: Supernova, 2 Live Crew ... you get the idea. I work with smaller bands as well and have, on occasion, dabbled in setting up shows for industrial/EBM acts out of fandom.

well if thats not condesending, i dont know the meaning of the word! i love it how anything associated with industrial or ebm is somehow less relevant or professional then when dealing with top selling acts like Hot Hot Heat.

in NYC at least, we all rub elbows with the same greasy ass club owners and agencies...

Goth scene observations: Fickle.. About 1/2 of the normal crowd that's out in the regular club nights will support live music. The other 1/2 are there for the social aspects..

Though at the same time a bigger "scene" show like Puppy, Siouxsie or even VNV will bring out a ton of people that rarely if ever go to clubs. With Puppy and Siouxsie it's probably a bunch of people that have out-grown clubbing and/or crossover fans that liked those specific bands but were never in the scene. With VNV I think it's more a ton of under 21'ers who can't get into a club in SF.

@helosix: I've been reported to CMJ RPM a little. Not that I actually show up on the chart, but DJs report my stuff... so if my stuff can do it, imagine a band with numbers larger than my, say, few dozen fans?! ;) Surely.

@ Out Out

very, very true. :)

i just dont understand why people from the indie rock and punk scene assume the way we conduct business in terms of setting up events or booking shows is somehow less involved or professional. sure, in small town settings it can be out of sheer lack of resources.

but ive been involved in big shows here in NYC, as has cenotype and many others, and frankly i think we do a pretty damn good job executing our events - potentially better then the afforementioned thread starter.

so yea, fuck the arguing and fuck this thread. i think some of us do a pretty good job doing it *our* way, and i could give two fucks how Hot Hot Heat manages their tours. they suck.

@helosix: Yeah, I meant that. And I do think they have a chance at the charts. It also has to do with the change of generation: progressive and hard electronic music may have better chance now than before. These are kids that grew up with The Prodigy :) People are finally understanding that electronic music is not canned dance music. Whatever, you get my drift :) I've also seen that regular club music listeners are catching up with the ideas in industrial scene, I was quite surprised to hear a few tracks in Marco V's set that sounded exactly like EBM. And conversely I see that house/trance listeners better appreciate variety in their music. So, why not?