@Stefan
when you come to Philadelphia can you autograph all my OFF BEAT and Dependent C.D.'s =)

How many are that? We do arrive the day before in Philly, and I should probably have time for that on the day b4. The first showday is always EXTREMELY hectic.

Stefan

@ How many? Alot.
I'll make sure I hide my burned copy of ivory frequency.

You should send Leemachine a message about an airport pick up for tuesday

Well, i got my Halo3 back, so I will catch you online, and we will discuss the further proceedings, OK?

Stfean

Aw man, Distraub and now Stefan Herwig - xbox live is like some indsutrial royalty playground!
And I remember when we had to go to gigs to schmooze... :)

See you in Chicago, sir. Not to debate, just to enjoy the show:)

I wanna meet ya just for the sake of meeting ya! Drinks on Giga!

I'll buy the drinks, you bring the virgins

Greg has the virgins.

Ill bring uhh, the tips.

Not that I'd argue for or against, since I think both sides have valid points, but this would be a fun idea if it weren't for recording it as a podcast. That kind of sets it up as you wanting something for people who agree with you to laugh at and ridicule later on.

@pathogen: Or, if really intelligent points are made the podcast could serve as documentation of them. I'd like to think the intentions would be pure.

I think both sides have valid points, too - but when it comes down to the bottom line, I've yet to hear a single valid justification for taking something without paying for it. Still waiting for that one. :\
Or uploading something that doesn't belong to you, that you've no right to "share" in the first place. Still no good answer there either... :\




@SH: You coming to Massachusetts? Would be fun to chat, time/schedule permitting!

I see my name here, and I'm up for it, but you won't be in NYC, will you?

What gets me though is some people feel the file sharing of MP3s is bad but its ok to fuck over Microsoft or something in that regard. If people are anti-piracy it needs to be accross the board, ya know?

I think that's a neat idea Stefan. I would be interested in hearing some of the debates on that and write a story about it if that's alright with you. I'm unsure if I'll be able to attend the shows unless your all coming to Atlanta area (i havent checked the dates yet), but I'd love to see Seabound and Iris.

Also on a side note, I'm not for file sharing, except for a few things that I have downloaded..but only the cds that I legit own but don't have in my current possession (they are in storage in AZ while I'm in GA.)

I personally don't find that part illegal, since I bought the original firsthand...but just don't have access to them and miss the great tunes. But other than that every album I own, I own hard copies of because I'm one of those collector type of persons.

Anyways, Good luck and I hope some of them actually come and have a debate with you and Dependant in general!
And good luck with the tours!! :^)

I think this is a great idea.

Will you be stopping by Atlanta, or any where near by?

Out Out: My problem with the argument is that for the most part, both sides use rhetoric that is specifically-designed to not be able to reach a compromise. The anti-piracy factions refuse to allow any wiggle room in the morality of the subject and the pro-piracy factions insist that their adversaries are money-hungry Luddites, etc. Hence why I refuse to argue about it. Both sides are right about some things but often refuse to admit that the other side has valid points at all. It's not healthy discourse, it's name-calling and ad hominems.

@ SH: I already posted on the Dependent forum, you can buy me a drink at the AMPHI. Also I will bring my Off Beat + Dependent CDs for Autograph.

And why does my name appear in a thread which says "filesharing is cool". Where did I say IT IS COOL ? Stefan, you have a good phantasy but quite weird also.....I posted already that I don´t need filesharing at all. I get enough good music, I explained that already... but I think it has no use to write all that shit again and again.

Just stay in your dreams that "we" are evil filesharers.

Wonder why I supported OB + Dependent artists with visiting concerts and buying CDs to read such shit here again, which has absolutly no truth in that context. And this my last word to this. I won´t buy/play anymore artists which are connected wiht your name in any way.

I'm not sure why anyone would agree to this. You are already pre-judging them wit h the "evil" adjective. This seems more like a way to root out the file-sharers on the forums and put them in the stocks for being such bad people.

I am trying to make the Portland, Los Angeles, and New York dates for the Seabound tour. I'll be happy to discuss this topic with others over a drink or two :)

Incidently, I think it's really dumb not to bring merchandise no matter how large of an act you think a band is. I won't name names, but lately a lot of European bands have been touring here without CD's for sale at the show.

So bitching about filesharing is ok but then when the bands do something like have a major tour WITHOUT CDs... does anyone else think that's rediculous?

@pathogen: I understand completely. I hope no one thinks I'm that rigid. :)

@StompyStompy: The only problem with downloading something you already bought is someone had to put it up there (without permission) for it to be available. And, as we all know, most people who use file "sharing" are using it to get stuff for "free" - so while you may have a license for the stuff you're downloading, most don't. And many "sharing" sites make money from visitors (via site ads) - so, I argue that even if your use of these services is on the more legal side of the argument, you're helping them make money off of artists by using them. And, again, someone had to put the stuff up there without the artists' permission - the crux of the problem, really. We could argue intent all day long on the side of the downloader, but it's the intent and actions of the uploader that really is at the root of the problem.

Nothing personal, mind you.

@Cryotek: Yeah, the 'evil' thing wasn't needed. But I think he was trying to be tongue-in-cheek a little, hence the "challenge" the "thee" and the capital E and F. :)

@Seraphin: Exactly. I spend waaay too much money on music, and a ton on software &movies, and whenever the wife or I wants a game, out comes the Visa card. But it's a choice. If I didn't want this stuff, I could make a choice to... not buy it.
I've spend hundreds in the past two months on software - new version of Quicken (it's tax time and my old version was, well, really old) - some new plug-ins and an update to Pro Tools, for example. None of them too expensive on their own, but it adds up.

@C.E. Touring without CDs? Totally crazy... if it's something that's doable at all it should be done. Now, of course, there is an importing/customs logistic to overcome if a band is touring outside their own territory... so that might explain why?

@StefanHerwig

You're assuming I share and/or download files/music, I can't say I've never done it but last year I downloaded 4 albums, I bought two of them and god knows how many more I bought during the year. This year I've bought two albums and downloaded - zero.

This forum is full of assholes, that's the only reason I make the posts I do.

You need to take a chill pill and take things less seriously, it's an internet forum for fuck sake and my user name is hardly something to get worked up about.

Outx2 - This is true, I never really thought about the whole "they make money off their ads by having the links up" part..which is last thing i'd want to do of course. But then again I don't click on ads. I haven't downloaded/backed up anything in a long long time since I now have about 95% of what I own alrady now on backup discs. But I see your point in it.

Although there is a few of the albums that I downloaded/backed up with some iTunes gift cards I had..so I didn't feel so dirty downloading the illegal backups. But yea, I'm not really up for the file sharing thing, it's pretty lame to steal bread from someone else's pantry.

Also I'm not in the US.

Wow this thread makes me not wanna go see seabound altogether.
:/

and yes I was surprised to see Aplha's Name on that list too.

Out Out -- "Yeah, the 'evil' thing wasn't needed. But I think he was trying to be tongue-in-cheek a little, hence the "challenge" the "thee" and the capital E and F. :)"

Going by his previous replies to certain threads and posts I don't believe Stefan would see a tongue-in-cheek comment if it smacked him in the face, let alone make one himself.

I also think is a regional issue. When a consumers only choices are pitiful mall stores, targets and walmarts it's no wonder people just buy that music from itunes. Those types of stores are notorious these days for having very limited inventory.

The flip side to this (cool indie stores) are few and far between, but it seems most major metro areas still have 1 or 2 chugging along. In Los Angeles you see tons and tons of teenagers buying CDs and Vinyl at places like Amoeba but Indie stores seem to promote and cater to collectors and crate diggers in general.

I think downloading will overtake physical sales within the next 5 years but the hip kids will still buy and collect product as long as it's still produced. The casual music fan (which far outnumbers collectors) will be perfectly content buying from itunes.

damnit, wrong thread..rofl

@StompyX2: Even if you don't click on the ads I think they they're worth more per click if they show higher traffic to their site... something like that... so even visiting the site helps them make money.
And many "sharing"/torrent sites have subscriptions that allow for faster downloads - again, making money off of the content they don't have a right to.

Again, nothing personal - if most people were altruistic (downloading things they already own, or actually buying what they download, like, and keep) I'd not bitch about it, as it would be a great promotional tool. But, as well all know, most people are in it for the "free" music aspect... combine that with the arrogance a lot of uploaders have that they're providing some kind of service, (and the arrogance of a lot of downloaders that they're somehow entitled to "free" music) and it's something that I largely can't condone.

@Out Out

Can you say hand on your heart they have never, ever, downloaded anything you had no right to download? Fonts, images, text, programs, files etc whatever just anything...?

...porn!

@I stoled: To be honest - why lie? Yes, I've downloaded things. Years ago. Like, years and years ago...
Some stuff, mostly "out of print" music stuff and a little software. But once things started getting really easy, where it was commonplace, I stepped back and gave it a good hard look. And promptly deleted everything I didn't need/want, and started buying everything I did. I've reconciled this now with my money where my mouth is...
I didn't become vocal like I am until I sorted myself out. Could I be so vocal if I didn't? :)

And, aside from some vitriol that's been spewed, you know me well enough to know that I don't see it as black-and-white, that I don't think most "sharers" are evil, that there could be some cultural benefits to the whole thing. It's just the state of "sharing" - where it's evolved, how easy it is to find virtually anything, that I evolved to the position I now take.
I do think entitled and/or arrogant people like the piratebay assholes are shit. No question there.

I've said it before - if most people actually paid for what they downloaded, liked, and kept, I'd think it was a pretty good thing (despite the whole uploading-without-the-owners'-consent thing, of course, I still can't quite reconcile that side of it.)





Oh boy. Are people gonna flame me now? I've never denied it, but I've never flat-out been asked, that I know of, either. On line, at least. In person, in conversations like these I've talked about this part of my experiences with "sharing" plenty of times.


Here's a book of matches. Have at it. :)

I OUT OUT.

You're always so polite and thoughtful in your comments, NOBODY could flame you :D

Being accused of thievery, slander and liable within my first five posts might give me a somewhat lopsided view of this forum, but Stefan has gotten pretty good at alienating anyone who might be on the fence.

Given who he is, years ago, I'd have been bragging to friends about running into in an internet forum. As it stands, I have a hard time drumming up sympathy for someone who has such a one-sided opinion that he attacks people on a personal level for no reason whatsoever.

Since I was unable to participate in the class action suit against the RIAA, and since the payout only covers the cost of one CD and one cup of coffee at Starbucks, I've been turning over the idea of unloading something like 1000 CDs maybe more, hopefully for 3 to 5 bucks each, basically all the RIAA crap that has been ripped and the CDs are just consuming space...

Stefan's rhetoric motivates me to include his bands in that pile, again, ripped and ready to be unloaded...

On the other hand, Out Out makes a ton of good points, points that I repeat to my file-sharing friends, and hope that they think about at least when it comes to the bands that they claim to like and I'm much more conscious of the side-effects that file-sharing has on the independent label/artist, although I'm still not gonna pay for these old billboard top 100 year xxxx comps OR most of the jazz and blues that I've got - I'm hoping to hear the shit my parents played while I was growing up, and searching on Grover Washington is only gonna get me so far....

So, it seems like the real problem at least here on side-line is that three out of four anti-filesharing types generate antipathy on the part of their supposed customers, Eminem, Lars, and now...

Stefan Herwig!

There have only been a few of my downloads off those crazy russian sites..most of the others were off MIRC (no ads, but still doesnt make it right and I feel dirty). Either way I still don't do it for stuff I don't own.

A lot of my music I also have (physical or digital) have been mostly given to me for reviewing or just out of niceness of the artists themselves. I guess I could call myself lucky in that aspect, but I still go to shows, buy merch and even some of the artists who gave me some free stuff I tossed a few bucks to their good will. I'm a supporter for the scene regardless.

Back in the day I used to download albums to hear what they sounded like, or to preview the songs, but now that a lot of music sellers and even bands have the low quality free streams (even if it's 15-20 seconds long) I dont see the "previewing to hear before I buy) excuse to be taking seriously anymore.
I deleted them after a day or so, or if i decided to buy it after hearing what I liked, because again I'm a fan of physical copies.

There are a ton of outlets in the past few years to preview a song/album/artist before you shell out the 10-15$ for the cd, it shouldnt even BE an excuse anymore. Besides, isn't that what compilations are for?? :^)

Oh and another thing..I have never downloaded a Out Out cd...ever.. :^p
I'm waiting to get some extra cash together since I just spent over a grand in the past few days on birthdays, then I'll grab the breathing again ep :^)

As long as you throw in a free sticker or else Ill have to digitally steal a photo and make my own..ha

@tape op: part of me cheers you selling RIAA stuff and keeping copies, and part of me feels really hypocritical for doing so. Again, this shit isn't black-and-white, no doubt.
I guess the thing about the used CD thing is, if I buy a used CD - I'd like to think that it was a true transfer of license, not effectively part of an act of piracy.
But the RIAA suck with all their stupid maneuvers over the years that I don't care that much any more.
At least you know the difference between an RIAA release and an indie one. :)


@StompyX2: Those Russian sites - don't get me started about those crooks! I'd rather have you use slsk any day!

And CD Baby has 2-minute streams of a large part of their stuff. Like, almost all my catalog, for example. (30 seconds is too short, IMO - iTunes needs to wake up in that regard.)


@I stoled/Dark Texas: shucks. :)

@Out Out - I kind of feel like (just to stay even from a karma perspective) that I would be beholden to blow the hypothetical 'ill-gotten-gain' strictly on independant CDs.


...and bong fuel

dent

independent

I knew that

edit button

I can only say turn your friends / colleagues attention to this and other Herwig threads. Maybe they´ll learn that there are much better, nicer and more honest labels out there that really should be supported. I pity the handfull of (still) good bands on Dependent though - they deserved better than this.

In no forum I read SH has a good reputation anymore - that says something imho.

I really feel dumb now to have bought all those Off Beat and a few Dependent CDs....even if the music (esp. from some Off Beat bands) was really good (Haujobb, VAC, FLA, Covenant, I. Totem, Interlace etc.)

@Alpha - I'm trying to not take it out on the bands, but it's hard to stomach being repeatedly verbally assaulted by someone who you've unknowingly helped to support for such a long time.

@ TO: That is true. I was only a bit upset to be honest.... I´m only human not a superman like other persons here.

And for the record: I pity that Dependent closes down, but don´t believe that is only the fault of the eevieel filesharers. Other labels still do quite good... so the stuff from those labels isn´t downloaded, or what ? Every label or band that still relaeses CDs has the same problem as the label Dependent and the bands on this label... But I don´t see all those other labels/bands posting and whining day by day on internet forums and accuse people....

So sorry again, I retract my above post as it was a bit "over the top" (EDIT button?) ... really as long the label Dependent exists support it, if you really like the music and the person(s) behind these bands....

You know speaking of stealing and all that stuff, I just got an email from Invisible Records for their next free cd.. which is RX- Bedside Toxicology. (Their last one I posted, Easy Listening is no longer free)

Do you think more labels should go this route by offering a free cd every now and then from the back catlog?

I mean when labels are giving away cds for free, there is no excuse to steal it you know? Now I know that ALL cds can't be free..but if they offered a free cd a month or every two months or whatever, do you think that would keep people faithful in the label?

and why does he want to meet Cat GIRL again?
hmmmmmm

@tape op: "I kind of feel like (just to stay even from a karma perspective) that I would be beholden to blow the hypothetical 'ill-gotten-gain' strictly on independant CDs."
Excellent thinking, sir. I'll call that a good compromise. :)

"...and bong fuel"
Perfect for listening to all that great new independent music you've just gotten!


@Stompy: I wish I could afford to just do "free CD giveaways". We did a little promo on MySpace where people who bought a Tshirt and wore it on their profile pic got a free copy of the new e.p. That was okay. And we'll do other stuff like that.
But to simply say "write us and we'll send you a free copy" - I can't afford that at all. :(

I hear ya..but I'm talking about labels in general...Projekt does a lot of free samplers and a lot of bargin bin 5 buck cds, Invisible gives away 2 a month, WTII gives out free samplers and cds at trade shows, but you never hear about corporate labels like Capitol or Virgin doing shit like that.

So if the big guys who can afford it don't do it, and the little guys who can't afford it, do it to try and draw in a fanbase but are ultimatley losing in the end, where is support for underground acts? No wonder it's a struggle to keep small labels and bands in business.

Oh and I wish I would have known about the tshirt promo sooner than a few days ago when I checked your myspace page, because even though it would have been a free cd, i'd still have bought it anyway...because im cool like that 8^)

@Alpha: Dependent chose to shut down - they weren't forced to - due to their disgust with people simply stealing their releases. That's their perception of what was happening, and that's beyond debate. That is, they saw their acts doing well in all other areas, but sales slipping (a logical signpost that people are just stealing the records) and decided enough was enough.
I've know many, many artists (in all different genres) over the past few years tell the same story - live show attendance is up or stable - correspondence from fans is up or stable - radio play/dj attention is up or stable, yet sales are down - not stable - down. Way down in many cases. So what gives, then?

Occam's Razor indicates... :(

- stompy: I was thinking the same as OUT OUT... giving out free CDs to everyone is really impossible. See much labels (Progress for example and even Dependent) give away free MP3s from their bands.... this should be enough...also there are already much promos (still often on CD these days) given out to the media...

I would like to see

a) better pay for me :) (Germany = new low pay country)
b) cheaper CDs with better music (max 13-14€ for new albums, for older ones or starting bands 10€ or so)
c) less filesharing and esp. less RUSSIAN (or Chinese?) sites.
d) get the "kiddies" back into paying for their music (I don´t expect this generation to still buy CDs though, those times are over, contrary to us "veterans")
e) CD shops like 10 years ago, where you could listen the CDs also.

but not free CDs...

My wishlist is impossible I know...

@StompyX2: Oh, I think it's great if a label can afford to!

(And I'll retroactively honor the T-Shirt/E.P. offer to any Side-Line forum member, for, let's say, until April 1, 2008. That is, buy a shirt, get a free E.P. - just promise to post a pic of yourself in the shirt as your MySpace profile pic, and 'friend' the "Out Out Cyber Street Team". This goes for any of you who bought the shirt prior to the special, too. If you're a S-L forum member, and bought a shirt from me, write me and I'll send you an E.P.)

Alpha, I agree with your list. I didn't mean though give EVERYBODY a free cd..but maybe like the first 50-100 people who also purchase like..another cd or whatnot. I think it would maybe help the label's fan stay loyal and theres always the "impulse" buys that are like "Alright Free cd, neat...oh hey I might as well pick this one up too since I'm here already"
I guess I should have clarified that earlier :^)

As far as giving away cds to the media, I don't mind if it's cd or digital, because I end up buying the full thing once it's released anyway. (If it's a promo cd more the bonus because I collect fun stuff like that)

But Since i'm in the media pool for Alfa Matrix, I get to listen to the cds before they are available so I can write about them, and they watermark the mp3's (this is a preview, etc etc) throughout the songs so It's a good tactic especially for those media people who leak the advanced copies to those downloading sites.

@StompyX2: Ah! Now that you put it that way - I've thought about that for my next full-length. I think conditional give-aways are easier to do, and that of course was/is what the T-Shirt/E.P. thing is... (And, as $5 bargain-bin discs were mentioned, I've got a couple in CDBaby's 'buy three specially-marked CDs, get them for $5 each' promo thing. Good times.)

@Alpha

I agree with your list...but as you also see, times change. I used to love going to the local shop here (Digital Underground now Metropolis records!) and hearing new stuff before buying it.

Thankfully though, most sites and/or stores, have MP3s up for you to hear snippets before you buy it.

- stompy: Agreed. Well okay, I would like free CDs also :P If label or band can afford it - why not... I know that AM has no promo CDs anymore only downloads.

I had a serious trouble with a very bad download promo from another label (which shall be unnamed here) so I don´t review download promos from labels anymore. Only from small bands which have good quality MP3 promos (192 bit and up...)....and also some form of info of the band you can work with (and no "modern" websites with small fonts, flash etc.)

Also I want at least a small return for my work (I don´t get money for writing) in form of a decent CD.

- out out: Payment method and delivery to Germany possible ? I have no paypal or creditcard.

- Sera: True, but listening MP3 at home has not the same feeling like going in a nice CD shop, taking their with other music fans (in person not in the net!) and listening there to CDs, like I used all these years ago. Yes, I´m dinosaur. But I have already acceptet the turn of tide... as I can do nothing to bring old times back.

Also I want at least a small return for my work (I don´t get money for writing) in form of a decent CD.

I Don't get paid for StompyStompy, I dont even have ads on the site (but if traffic gets big enough I may consider to help with bandwidth costs), but hell, i'd be happy with free fucking stickers lol 8^)

I currently just do it for the love of the music. Also it doesn't hurt to make "contacts" in trying to help further along my project that I've been working on for 10 years now.

Stealing is bad..

I agree with StompyStompy, if more labels gave away their music for free people wouldn't need to waste time downloading it for free!

- stompy: Sounds like me :D

- I stole: Agreed, a very logical posting :D But I want also free entry to concerts and free shirts, gasmasks and nude pics from hot female artists :P

Sounds like a good idea! Yes we need those things free also!

I Stoled - Even though I like the idea of a free cd just as the next person would, labels would go out of business if they gave them all away for free.
I kind of like how Invisible is doing it, which is so many copies are free, then it's back on the shelf, then a different cd is free for so many copies, then it's back on the shelf. It keeps things interesting, and theres always those impulse buys.. case in point..I grabbed the Rx cd they have now..even though I have a copy already, it's in AZ and Im in Atlanta..so instead of me trying to snag a illegal copy even though I own it, I'll take another physical copy.

And during checkout I searched around for a bit and bought a few other boxsets and a hoodie. Impulse buys that I probably would have never done because I keep forgetting to get them, so "while im here might as well grab this and this".

Whow, serious and reasonable postings in a SH thread, what went wrong here ?

@Alpha: Paypal, via my website's online shop. I have to require an additional fee for shipping outside of the US and Canada (there's a button for it) as shipping recently has gotten really, really expensive. :(

@I stoled: tell me how I can press CDs for free and I'll consider more freebies. (Nevermind studio costs, equipment/software costs, promotional costs, etc, etc, etc...)
If I was independently wealthy, I'm sure I'd do some more fun stuff with freebies. But I'm not - I make ends meet in life, and Out Out/Radio Valkyrie Records makes less than it spends... :(

@StompyX2: I get snagged by those impulse buys too. =D

Not sure if it’s necessary for us to sit down and chat, however, there are a few items that I should clear up.

By calling me an "evil filesharer[sic]" you seem to have misunderstood my position.

For the record: I do not download illegal audio files. I do not rip my CDs and share said music with people online though any sort of file sharing program. I do not burn copies of my CDs and sell them on Ebay or to my friends or to my family.

In short Mr. Herwig: I don't support the illegal sharing of audio files.

The only MP3s I currently have on my computer are the four "The River Run" projects by Underworld which I purchased through their web site. "The River Run" project was a digital only release by Underworld. Because I think Underworld is hands down an amazing effort, I bought the MP3s even though I hate MP3s due to their inferior audio quality.

I am, however, highly critical of a music industry that I feel it's has been anti-consumer and anti-choice in the past.

What I am is a pissed off customer of yours who's watching a bunch of dumb-asses running around with their heads cut off pointing fingers and not innovating, adapting and not facing reality.

What I am is a person that has poured tens of thousands of dollars into home audio equipment so that I could spend the rest of my life buying music and enjoying it, but now see an industry that is being destroyed by not only a bunch of grudge bearing asshat wearing consumers who have been given the finger for decades, but also by the very people in charge of the industry through their ineptitude and denial.

I am critical of your industry Mr. Herwig, however, I am not stealing or sharing your music or any other musician's music that post here or anywhere.

I am critical of the slave mentality most musicians have.

I am critical of musicians that don’t know how to run themselves like a business.

I am critical that for decades musicians bitched about an oppressive unresponsive "machine" that ground them up, spit them out when they got old and rip them off by not paying their royalties, but now seem to love the very machine they hated because their beaten dogs have turned against them.

I am still angry about Brian Adams.

I can understand your feelings of anger, hurt and your general distrust in humanity, but I don't understand your inability to adjust to the Zeitgeist that is upon you and your profession. I don't understand people that wallow in the negativity of "change". I don’t do that.

You, Mr. Herwig, have the unique opportunity to take a broken industry that your customers have hated for decades and begin again. You should be exited and yet, you're throwing down gloves and challenging people to meaningless debates that, you know very well, will accomplish nothing.

Maybe your challenge to me should be: “If you ran a music label, how would you keep it solvent in the face of whole sale piracy.” instead of luring me to a hotel lobby so that you can impugn and assail my character because I represent the very change you hate. Because you and the rest of your industry don’t have a cohesive answer to the very question that’s vexing you: “Why do moral people steal?”

Most moral people steal from people, or businesses, or industries, or governments that they find immoral in some way. Ever work for a company, Mr. Herwig? Ever steal a pen for the office? Paper? A chair? Ever take office supplies and think, “Ah, that place makes millions and pay me shit.”

Ever, for a moment, stop to reflect on why so many people that can easily afford your product steal from the music industry? Why, when given the choice, did a flood gate of piracy descend upon copyright owners? Why?

Like it or hate it, Mr. Herwig, the music industry is on tectonic plates and if your only answer to the voluminous change around you is to mollify those that oppose you through unsubstantiated threats, then you will continue to fail.

You should read this, Mr. Herwig:

» Editorial: An Open Letter to the Industry

It deals with the Anime industry and the plague of fansubs that are changing it, but the points are salient to your industry and its woes. It’s a lengthy read, but if you read it all, you may find various commonalties between his and your frustrations.

If you still want to meet, I’ll consider it, but if it’s just to talk about filesharing, then we already agree on most points … except maybe the morality of copyrights, but that’s out of the scope of your challenge.

Also see:

» "Intellectual property" is a silly euphemism

Who's going to crackdown on all those cassete tape pirates from the 80s copying their friends records or tapes and giving them out :)

@CE: The difference with cassette tape trading was you had to actually know someone who had what you wanted. An interpersonal interaction. And closed ended - at best maybe another copy might be made of that copy, but the quality went downhill so fast that it was generally not valued. Now, "sharing" is open-ended, anonymous, and on-demand. No interpersonal interaction needed - no degredation of the source. In it's very essence, it's distribution, not sharing at all. And that is such a huge gulf from 'home taping' it's incomparable.

@Catgirl: well said - I thought you might have been inappropriately targeted at the top of this thread.
While I largely agree, it's the 'good guys' - the labels who treat their artists well, and their customers, and the artists themselves - that get caught in the crossfire when the average person decides it's morally acceptable to steal music because of some 'fuck the man - they only fuck the artists' mentality. Unless an artist specifically states that they're being screwed - specifically states that they don't mind or care if people simply steal their work, it's no one's right to assume otherwise. Which is where the whole 'the industry sucks so let's just rip it off' argument falls completely flat on it's face.

Oh, where that relatively good Guardian article falls apart in the context of this thread is the notion that intellectual property isn't property at all - it's only ideas. Horseshit. If I create a piece of music, and record it, that recording is a thing, all right. And the fundamental point of copyright is to protect my right to decide where, how, and for how much that thing is copied [distributed]. Just because someone gets to know a recorded piece of music doesn't change that fact. They don't own it any more than before they heard it - they're just now familiar with the idea(s) in the recording. If they want to possess a copy of a recording, they still need to adhere to the rights holders' choice as to how their copyright is expressed. That is, if there's a price tag, then they need to pay it or choose the only other option - not to. There isn't a third option, short of hoping to hear it on the radio or at a friend's house or something...
I think using intellectual property arguments in context of copyright, music, and illegal downloading is too narrow... Just some thoughts.

I don't really see how relevant that is to know someone online or in real life as it pertains to sharing music. It's still pretty lame to have a collection of copied tapes or copied cds without having any physical copies. And who has the time to fucking do all that for every artist/band you love.

I'm thinking people who's lives don't revolve around the internets and computers, and believe it or not there are still a lot out there, don't. It's easier to buy the CD. If it's in front of them.

I love music and I'd imagine Im not the only one buying cds in the world.

@CE: The relevance is the closed-ended, small-scale copying vs open-ended anonymous distribution. Scale - it's now huge, and on-demand, and lossless copying are the differences.
If you know someone and copy something, you're literally sharing with them. If you upload something for someone - anyone - to take, infinitely both in numbers of copies and in generational degradation - that's no longer sharing - it's unauthorized distribution.

And, when it's personal, there's the whole knowing-what-your-friend-likes-and-turning-them-on-to-stuff aspect. Again, an interpersonal relationship.

I'm not defending old-school taping as morally perfect, either - but it sure was on a much, much smaller scale as to not really be harmful.


But I agree with the last two paragraphs, there. :)

I Like Music.

Catgirl gets five points for appropriate use of the term 'zeitgeist!' Let's see if Stefan can come back in the next round!

Stefan Herwig is a dick.

say that to his face!

Wow, many more responses than I had expected.
In brief:

"Evil filesharers" is obviously tongue in cheek. Sorry for not being precise enough about it. Next time I will add an "harr harr" to the thread as well. I dont believe in evil people by the way. But I do believe in stupid.

@Tape Operator
I will be in NYC, but it is questionable if I have time that day. But on the day after the rochester show we have a day off. As far as I understand, rochester is still in the state of new york, maybew that is an opportunity. Or we could do it on the day of the Rochester Show (Which is the sunday after NYC), after the shows. I would love to discuss with you.

@Alpha:
Sorry for putting you into the filesharer camp, but there was a lot of criticism in your posts ion both, the dependent forum and here, so I was actually thinking you were also starting to flame labbels and propagate downloadres. Ironically enough, our CDs are already priced at 12,99€ which is exactly the price you are demanding. Also, there are lots of free downloads on the dependent homepage. Almost every album has a free track to download (not to stream).
Also you are wrong in your assumption that we closed completely voluntarily. Money was getting short and if we had continued a few more months, we might have been bancrupt. Unlike other labels that do it on their sparetime we have had four full-time employees, plus a webmaster working for it. I could have downsized the company, but I did not want to downsize because many people simply refuse to pay for our product.


Evil Stefan:
Sorry, I have a strong opinion about filesharing. But people that threaten to retrun Dependent/offbeat CDs just because I disaagree with them in a forum display an odd concept of what I would call "constructive discussion". What is the effect of your threats: To drive artists and label heads out of this discussion? "Agree with us in this forum, or else...?"
I dont think so, and I will continue to speak out against filesharing and the many bullshit arguments that come along with it. And yes, I might continue to offend some people. But it is not possible to tackle an "in-depth look" in a forum discussion with 20 people involved and lots of "funny pictures".

@cryotek:
I think you got this wrong. This whole "challenge" is not to make someone look "dukmb" but to give an in-depth review of the many wrong concepts people have about pricing, music labels and creation of value for music. And I also agree that there are valid points on both sides of the camp. I am the last to say that the music industry is 100% right and the filesharers are 100% wrong.
But what we need is dialogue between the two, and I can not see a real in-depth public dialogue anywhere.

@Catgirl:
Long post. Will answer in a separate post today or tommorrow. Need some time to read the arguments.

Stefan

Oh, and last not least: That challenge is obviously open for everyone who believes in "good filesharing" and "evil record companies", not only the people mentioned.

I am listing all offdates again, because they would be the best options for setting something up in that regards.

16.03.08 Rochester Water Street Music Hall
17.03.08 day off/travel day in rochester.
21.03.08 travel day between chicago and austin tx (flight)
22.03.08 Austin Elysium
23.03.08 travel day between Austin and dallas
24.03.08 Dallas Club Dada
25.03.08 travel day between dallas and Seattle
26.03.08 Seattle El Corazon
27.03.08 Portland Mt. Tabor
28.03.08 travel day between Portland and SF
29.03.08 San Francisco DNA Lounge
30.03.08 Los Angeles Safari Sam's
31.03.08 off day in LA
(complete dates on www.dependent.de)

During all those travel days it might be best to do it monring/noon or in the evening. If all those dates fail, we might have to see if we can do it on showdates, but off dates are greatly preferred.

StefanHerwig -- ""Evil filesharers" is obviously tongue in cheek. Sorry for not being precise enough about it. Next time I will add an "harr harr" to the thread as well."

You shouldn't try to be clever, not after miss reading other peoples tongue-in-cheek threads...and names. Especially after making accusations you can't back up.

I'm going to totally highjack just this small section of the thread just to say that I just got the Covenant "In Transit" DVD today in the mail and it's an awesome documentary/concert. That is all. 8^)

Hey! Be careful about what you enjoy!

I had my filthy hand onto that produced that DVD!

I'm going to break into Stompy's house and burn it. :D

the dvd, not his house.

wait, no, his house too.

My Covenant Synergy live box set never came with the advertised Mix Drink Martini recipe

Another elaborate rip-off!

@Stefan - I didn't know filth could be so fun

@Parthogen - You don't need to break in, i leave my doors unlocked. Plus, my house is a peice of shit and you'd probably end up doing it better than it is currently.
Just at least put my expensive toys outside first. I don't feel like buying all that shit again. :^)

@StefanHerwig

But people that threaten to retrun Dependent/offbeat CDs just because I disaagree with them in a forum display an odd concept of what I would call "constructive discussion". What is the effect of your threats: To drive artists and label heads out of this discussion? "Agree with us in this forum, or else...?"

it's not constructive discussion or criticism, it's a knee-jerk response. What it illustrates though, is who has what to lose. Yeah, if you alienate someone enough, regardless of what you are selling, some people are going to simply not do business with you on principle.

It's like Klinik box set is a daily reminder that you flamed me like a nut-job from my first post forward, KNOWING that I was new on the forum at the time, and with any kind of clue would have thought "OK, dude is new here, and must not know what's going on.", but NO, you just went off on me. Given that I wanted to kick your teeth in after that, and the basic illogic of throwing Kliniks' End of the Line box against the wall, hocking starts to seem like a balanced, nuanced response.

You have to get your head around the fact that the file-sharing community is selfish enough that they don't care if you go away, they don't perceive a label shutdown as their loss - it's going to be years before these people turn around and say "what happened?"...

As for meeting with you, I'll look at a map and trains schedules - I'm not still wanting to kick your teeth in, I don't really care anymore. It's like whatever.



I got sickness. Sweet as a love note. I got a headache. Like a pillow.

"it's going to be years before these people turn around and say "what happened?""
And, sadly, few have the insight, or foresight, to see that this time will come if we stay on the path we're on. It's already here, but the effects are only just a ripple still. Wait 'til the wave grows...

We're all going to die anyway so who gives a fuck?

Catgirl is the smartest cat :D

I stoled stefans humor wrote:

We're all going to die anyway so who gives a fuck?

To die is one thing. To suffer is quite different.

@ SH: Okay, peace :)

Otherwise I just dito Tape Ops and Out Out´s posts on the matter.

@Catgirl: That last post. Wise, wise words. :)

I see a dead horse being beat up again. Poor Horse.

As long as the horse draws a breath... as long as the horse draws a breath...

@StefanHerwig: Will you have any of the dependent catalog with you? Or is that kind of disrespectful to the artists doing the show. There are a few things I'd like to pick up when you're in Seattle if so.

"I stole ur muzak"

I'm not much for betting, but I'll bet this is one of Witchy's 1,000 pseudonyms.

Wait, 30 seconds just passed, so make that 1,002.

Muzak - warming elevators and supermarkets in NYC and around the world since 1936!

You have to get your head around the fact that the file-sharing community is selfish enough that they don't care if you go away, they don't perceive a label shutdown as their loss - it's going to be years before these people turn around and say "what happened?"...

even with 'writers strike' being pumped 24/7 on news outlets & whatever, very few people picked up on the fact that no writers for your favourite network shows leads to American Gladiators coming back on the air.
i dont think people are bright enough to get it.

i just paid to have my latest cd mastered. i'm currently looking @ pressing costs, the boxes of the last batch of cd's sitting in my garage that i pressed 5 years ago, the cost of the packaging i'd like to do creatively & what would be financially smart to do (not press a disk @ all).

unfortunately i love the album format. & the cd is currently the best means of transmitting that kind of data & maintaining artistic control over sound quality, album track order, transitions & flow.

i was bullshitting with the mastering engineer about the dismal state of music, he seems confident that "someone will think of something".

@Stevil: I sure hope that ME is right. Believe me, we're not stumped for a lack of trying to think of ways to improve/adapt/whatnot (despite what some accuse many of us of doing, simply sitting back and whining!)

By the way, and tangentally, how did the mastering go? Very interested in hearing your new stuff. :)


And totally spot-on about the writer's strike. A friend and I were conversing along those lines a few weeks ago...

By the way, and tangentally, how did the mastering go? Very interested in hearing your new stuff. :)

it went very well. just giving them a final run the every stereo i can find.
lets drag mastering chat back to the tech forum:
http://www.side-line.com/forum/threads.php?id=29105_0_34_0_C

@Stevil, Out Out:

think about it: they're all watching reality TV.

"Fuck a writer" is probably the average persons' train of thought at this point, because it's not that people aren't bright, it's just that many of those of us who are think television is lies and bullshit and useful for sampling at best (ok, that last bit is us) and throwing bricks at the worst. or vice versa, ha.

What somebody wasn't gonna zerox off law and order a million more times? What, some show was gonna suddenly not have a plot? Sure. Wake me.

and a lot of dumb people are pushing broke right about now, at least in the US, so sympathy for people they think are already rich got tossed first

So tangent, sorry; I hate TV and think that somebody maybe just laughed twice, but the poignant thing that keeps coming back around is the perception on the part of the audience that people 'in the industry' are rich. I met this kid (no, really, I'm 38 he's like 23, I'm not a mainstream show promoter) that works for UMG, has just watched mad people get fired, and everyone left is trying to figure how to undo P2P. Quite literally.

I mentioned to him that one of the reasons that people download with impunity is that the public honestly believes that the biggest artists see a quarter per unit sold. I told him that the industry basically used the fact that Madonna was getting paid a 0.25/per to market her, right around when Matador was created, and it was a big splash in the hip-hop magazines it was when Baby came in at 0.26/per.

Honestly, all attempts at being funny to one side, this kid; Latino dude, b-boy type, hip-hop kid with a huge wad of cash ready to show and blow p-diddy jr-jr-jr-style, literally 'flossing' with mad "I'm the man" attitude, completely lost all 'homeboy' affect, stopped bouncing, looked me in the face and said:

"that's where we fucked up"

people really believe that they have made Madonna rich $0.25 at a time. They didn't feel that the $17.75 was worth it, and nobody misses tower but jazz and classical fans.

Furthermore, even people who think that they have the best interests of the audience in mind fully buy the "live performance = revenue model" story, to the extent that they explain it to people as if it's some sort of new way to do things.

There is a lot in the way of public perception that needs to be straightened out, but who's got a big enough platform to get the message out? I do believe that we're entering a really dark period - I'd suggest saving your best for later for now, that is, if you think that somehow it will be different later.

edit button - best interests of the artists...

Ok, I haven't read all the bullshit since the first post to this but here is my take:

I used to rely quite heavily on filesharing back when I was first into the scene (around age 14) I lived in a rural area and I couldn't even buy a Skinny Puppy cd within 20 miles of where I lived let alone the "hottest" new power noise group. I was in High School and paying off court fines (heheh) and scrounged money together when I could to buy CD's that I liked. Because truthfully I never liked the idea of downloading a whole CD I would usually browse DJ lists and things like that to see what songs people liked from albums, and I would download 2 tracks per cd max, if it was a band I liked I kept the mp3's until I could buy the full cd.

Now I understand that this is just a single example and probably doesn't constitute as "average" file-sharing. AND nowadays you can easily listen to almost any band with the help of youtube, myspace, and vampirefreaks. BUT I will always be a strong believer of peoples right to share files, I never see QUALITY of product brought up enough, because just like when I downloaded mp3's, if I dont like your music I wont buy your CD. PERIOD.

Now personally, that I am a wee bit older and living out on my own 3000 miles away in seattle and I have met several people in the scene, and am thousands into gear for making my own music, and personally I do completely understand people being upset when others are simply downloading all the hard work they did. But I do not let these feelings overpower my feelings for peoples rights, and I really think that being digital media, it's not the same type of thievery, because we as musicians are not what it's about, it's about the music itself. It's not like when you take it, it's not still there, there's now just more of it out there, how could you be disappointed as a musician about people spreading your art?


Short and narrow:
I don't download music.
I don't approve the downloading of music.
I do approve of peoples rights to do what they will with digital media.



How about a new playback medium with all proprietary components so it's a huge fucking hassle to rip?

Or how about streaming portable devices with subscription fees per label, ya know. like a wifi enabled mp3 player that labels allow people to instantly stream tracks?



whatever, kinda rambled.

I'm here to tell you:

the vast majority people ARE dumb.

That's all I have to say about it.

It's a verified fact. Ask any of my employees, lolz. It's fairly certain we deal with the lowest common denominator of humanity on a daily basis.

Also filesharing == bad. Don't say Side-Line neva learned you nothin!

Do work son!

@ SH: Well you were WRONG in the case I´m a evil filesharer. You weren´t wrong in the case I´m a critical person and also dito some of the critical posts reg. the music industry myself (Catgirls post for example). What - I think - you must learn there is not only black and white there are colours between.

The easy answer is not everyone who has some illegal MP3 (I have) is also a evil filesharer, cause I have about 550-600 orig. media also and I guess 70-80% of my MP3s are a) free legal ones b) those I ripped myself from CDs I own and paid for c) those that aren´t anymore on sale for money at all (out of print stuff).....so you are right in your assumtion that I might have some illegal MP3..Dependent isn´t among them as I don´t like most of the newer music on your label.

....but the difference is:

a) I don´t like filesharing at all very much, I don´t need it. I have enough legal sources for free MP3s also. I still pay for music..

b) I don´t upload or spread around illegal shit or even sell it.

c) I try as soon I have the money to support the artists I like, means I see a CD from a good band for a ok price I´m going to buy it.

d) I suffer myself from filesharing since I´m hobby"musician" myself and also often traded with 2nd hand CDs. This market has gone downhill the same way as the new CD market. Especially in the goth and/or indus market - most newer people in these scenes seem to don´t care about the music at all, but for the looks, sex and coolness. So I would be the FIRST ONE to put a stop to burning CDs en masse or filesharing.. if I could do anything about it.

BUT THE QUESTION REMAINS: Does Mr. Herwig or Mr. Tommy T. (the holy cows against filesharing) have downloaded something from the internet, like pics, porn, software, maybe even fonts for their MS office ? I guess YES. It is hypocrisy to condemn actions of others that damage your own business and bank account, but to do the same to others.

AND I did know musicians (those whining about low CD sales) who in the second sentence tell people to download sample CDs or VST synth No.99 to "try it out"....well some labels and musicians DAMAGE other businesses, too !
Mostly software and film industry I guess. So just shut up and stop downloading yourself.

I can't be bothered with the majority of this nonsense but I thought I'd chip in with this...

In a lot of other forums I read, posts about new releases are followed by a host of people saying "ORDERED!". They get stoked about new releases (on CD, vinyl or *gasp* tape) and can't wait to buy them. With money. I've just read a comment from a small-ish experimental label here in Scotland that says, "Wow! Thanks for all the orders guys! Since the Aquarius reviews things have gotten out of hand here, like. Pretty much quadrupled ZBT sales in a week!"...

Now, they're not a huge label by any means but it shows that people are still buying stuff, quite happily. I, personally, think that mass-produced, jewel-case CDs are going to decline in sales but it's not the medium that's at fault, it's the dull and uninventive way that it's marketed.

What happens when people announce a new release here? Fuck all. No-one even uses the plug section anymore because, by people's own admission, no-one reads it. And, on that note, my March bonus will be going towards paying for the release of a new Wraiths CD. That's a money/mouth interaction if ever I saw one.

> "it's the dull and uninventive way that it's marketed."

dull and uninventive marketing for dull and uninventive music.

GUN! -- "Also filesharing == bad. Don't say Side-Line neva learned you nothin!"

All of it? :(

@tape op: your last post was great.

@PV: I want your new record. And, of all those forums you're on where people actually say "ordered!" - is one good for me to lurk at, and maybe join? :D

@Alpha: some good points - the whole hypocrisy that people have when getting upset about people downloading their music when they're making it with 'warez".
But the hypocrisy of people who would otherwise not steal who think taking music "for free" is somehow okay is also insanity...

@I stoled: No, but most of it is. We've been down that road before. (If most people actually bought what like liked/used then things might be very different thing...)

@GUN!: George Carlin and his observation of intelligence is the best (and scariest) summation for me, and always is worth repeating: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." =O

@ Out Out,

Cool, I'll let you know when the new Wraiths thing is out. Have you seen our vinyl release?

The forum I was thinking of is called Forever Doomed (http://www.foreverdoomed.com/forums/) which is the "new" forum taking over from Southern Lord's now-defunct forum. Perhaps not your kind of thing but certainly worth having a look out for another angle on DIY/underground music.

@RIOTLEGION: The "right" to "share" files you cite isn't necessarily a right at all.
That is, in the current climate of things it either resembles too closely, or actually is, unauthorized distribution - which tramples all over someone else's actual, legitimate, rights. It matters not one bit that the original isn't altered when it's digitially copied - it still tramples their rights. And as most people use "sharing" to simply take (unlike the minority like you who use it to preview what they actually end up buying) it's just wholesale piracy. And while artists of course want their work out there as much as possible, most, most don't waive their right to choose where, how much, and how their work is distributed. P2P/torrent "Sharing" flies completely in the face of that for most artists. That is, if they want their work out there for free, they feel (rightly) that it should be upon their own volition.

Now, I'm not black-and-white about it, but really - honestly - anonymous, open-ended, on-demand access to anything and everything, almost totally without the rights holders' consent (and almost always against their wishes) is simply not a "right" of the people.
But things like mix tapes for friends are great, where it's not open-ended, anonymous, and on-demand, while still technically violating the rights holders' right to where, how, and for how much their work is distributed is generally also a proven method for one of the best ways for people to find out about music they've not heard before - genuine, person-to-person word of mouth. Most artist love mix tapes (CDs) for this reason, even though it is also a violation of their rights, technically.

Just some thoughts...

@PV: I've seen pictures, I think. I'll buy one! I love vinyl.
And I might lurk over there for fun. :)

Oh, RIOTLEGION: How can musicians be upset by people "spreading" their art. Respect - or the lack of it. If you didn't see it, Tom Ellard of Severed Heads posted some great words on this recently. Sadly, he took the post down from his site.
(Copied and pasted from another S-L post where it had been copied and pasted...: )

"When I was young, I signed a bad publishing contract with the record label. That was stupid, but it was my stupidity. When my records came out I perhaps received less than was due. That's too bad, but it was my choice.

From this you might decide that some record labels and publishers are immoral. You might be tempted to denounce them and call for a new model of music distribution. You might then decide to act on this and take some of my music and place it on a torrent or some other 'sharing service'. Some people have already done this and they claim to be helping me.

They are worse than the record companies they denounce. Much worse.

The publishers let me sign. If I didn't sign they would walk away, game over. But I never signed anything with Pirate Bay or Oink or whatever the flavour of the month is. No one talked to me, no one asked me, it was decided on my behalf that this was good for me. People who decide what's good for everybody without consultation - well there's some bad names for that kind of action.

Like the Gang of Four once sang: "Save me from the people who would save me from myself - They've got muscle for brains".

What we need is dialogue. What we need is people to talk with other people, not programme other people like they were just another computer. There has to be give as well as take. So here, I'll give a little. Here, I'll place some music up on the Internet that you can take for nothing. In return you'll acknowledge that it did not come out of machines, or from under a rock. Somebody made it. It is not just a file. It's somebody's time, it's their hopes, it's their practice and all the things that make life more than just a collection of Megabytes. I'll respect you, if you'll respect me."

I hope that's the quote in its entirety - I'm not sure if the front got cut off... But the point it makes is still in there.

Oh, I should have also added that a lot of thoughts and ideas in that post, RIOTLEGION, were thoughtful, insightful, and appreciated. :)

@ Out Out,

Drop me an email. I'll sort you out a deal for the vinyl, if you like.

@PV: email sent! (The equivalent, perhaps, of "Ordered!" :D )

get a room!

A "right of the people" does not mean it is a right to to freely take art someone else created.

The world would be in much better shape if people put this much effort into getting important stuff like food, shelter and medicine to people FREELY then worrying about getting music free.

stefan: i'd be happy to do this in san francisco. i don't have any mp3s of stuff i don't own (except for stuff like unreleased music by a few of my favorite bands, and the bogart schwadchuck classic "bitch go buy me a hotdog") but i do disagree with you on a lot of points, so the conversation should be interesting. i'll try to show up early.

Seraphin wrote:

A "right of the people" does not mean it is a right to to freely take art someone else created.

Agreed.

Music is a luxury and not a basic human "right". When you steal something, your action implicitly states that you have a "right" to what you have stolen. Nobody has a "right" to free music especially if imposing your "right" results in financial hardship for another human.

However... (and I'll get raked over the coals for writing this, but what the hell...)

Because music is a luxury, it is a non-essential commodity (note I referred to music as a "commodity"). Therefore, if the current music industry were to collapse and cease to exist, people not financially tied to it, could continue to live.

Yes, yes, I know...I too would die if I couldn't hear another Icon of Coil remix, but in reality, the music industry is a non-essential and artificial organization that provides a living to some, but only contributes to human vitality by organizing the distribution of a vice that was once unorganized.

I'm not suggesting the abolition of a music industry. Quite the opposite. I'm suggesting that organizations oscillate and during times of oscillation, there is pain, confusion and a nihilistic belief that the concept that the organization was found on is dead .... which is wrong.

There may be a technological fix that can stem piracy to a reasonable level. Until that day, the balance of leverage has shifted from the music industry to the consumer (if I don't like your price, I can steal it easily) and the moral decision of what is a "right" as been cooked down to an individual choice and not a universal edict.

I don't see much art tho

think about it: they're all watching reality TV.

unfortunately i don’t really have to think about it. i went nutz a few years ago trying to tap into 'universal consciousness'. i'd been doing acid & shrooming regularly & reading a bunch of mckenna, watts, leary & experimenting with the whole 8 circuits of the mind thing. unfortunately it's no mental utopia, it's pretty much bone head jerry springer drama lowest common denominator on every channel.



"Fuck a writer"

i hear ya, i wasn’t really siding with tv (though i do like a bit of it). it's just a prime example of how insulated our causes are from their effects. it takes years for them to trickle down & the buffers of cataloged material to clear out of the system. by the time people start to really notice, it's a new generation being marketed to & the critics are old & ignored.



everyone left is trying to figure how to undo P2P. Quite literally.

Honestly, all attempts at being funny to one side, this kid; Latino dude, b-boy type, hip-hop kid with a huge wad of cash ready to show and blow p-diddy jr-jr-jr-style, literally 'flossing' with mad "I'm the man" attitude, completely lost all 'homeboy' affect, stopped bouncing, looked me in the face and said:

"that's where we fucked up"

great anecdote.
they’re just now figuring that out?



"live performance = revenue model"

that works great for us small acts that are typically expected to 'pay to play'


There is a lot in the way of public perception that needs to be straightened out, but who's got a big enough platform to get the message out? I do believe that we're entering a really dark period - I'd suggest saving your best for later for now, that is, if you think that somehow it will be different later.

i don’t think it'll be any different later. i've never really made money @ this game. covered some expenses here & there but that’s about it. so i'll be putting out the record i wrapped up last week just as i have all my other releases, on my own dime.
making millions would be a nice bonus, but if that was my only motivation for making music i'd have found something else to be passionate about a long time ago. i wont miss the flood of crap material from performers less passionate about their craft than myself. thin the fucking herd.

to me it is a real pisser that the album format is currently suffering though.

@Catgirl: no coal-raking from me - that's pretty sound reasoning.

Stefan is one of the few with the balls to talk about this stuff and oppose the downloading pirates..I respect him for that,and his points....

I don't see many that really get the point cause not that many have actually released albums of their own or from others and spent their hard earned money to produce something so expensive....so they don't understand about how much is lost and what a kick in the face it is when every trendy bastard that steals from the labels sits on forums like this all the time and tries to convince everyone how "evil the record labels are" when without the record labels most of these bands that influenced you and me and the bands we like now were released and paid for by record labels....band you never would have heard of if some record label didn't take a chance on them...

so...we are of course the ones who are suffering most from the shit going on...not the game players that don't even release music, or the casual listeners or club junkies or hot topic sheeple...or the bands who are only releasing downloads, or cd-r or short runs of CD's and don't see how much damage is happening..the labels and distributors and stores and real musicians see it,the ones who have years and years of experience and lots of money and investments on the line.... and thats why we are trying to inform people...but it seems too many just want to try to be funny, be "in the crowd" follow for acceptance and not really understand the true problems...
it reminds me of how society is overall..misinformed and fucking mindless..

"I don't see many that really get the point cause not that many have actually released albums of their own or from others and spent their hard earned money to produce something so expensive...."

Tommy, you should really stop saying crap like this because you have absolutely no idea what people do (or don't do). It makes you sound disconnected and out of touch. I disagree with Stefan almost entirely and yet, surprise, I have both released my own music and that of other people, paid for people to play live gigs out of my own pocket and use my free time to write about other people's music.

You may now use your time-honoured response of "no-one likes your music because it's just noise blah blah"...

The big problem with an assumption that a given record label might be 'evil' is that one generally doesn't have enough information to make that judgment soundly. That is, one artist might have voiced disapproval of their situation, but one cannot automatically assume that most artists on that label feel likewise. As I've said, artists who complain about their contracts - that they signed - are either idiots or their lawyers are. And, unless you know hear from the artist directly that they're unhappy (idiots or no - things might have changed after the contract was signed) you can't assume that they're anything but happy with things.

And even if one label rightfully gets a rep of genuine dissatisfaction from many of its artists - it's still no barometer to assume that another label is equally bad. Yet "fuck the man" is a rallying cry for robin hood-types to "share" music. Feh. Ignorant horseshit. Sure, some labels screw their artists every chance they get. Majors tend to be the types. Where indies tend not to be. To think that the average person can tell the difference, and even if they can, that they've got enough information to actually understand what's going on, is silly. I've said it before, I've had people tell me that because I'm on a label I must be getting ripped off somehow. Er, no. I am my label. But that just shows me, very clearly, the assumptions people make.


I basically agree with tommyt here. But I disagree that all short-runs or download-only releases are bad. It's just that far too few people are self-editing, acting as their own quality control. Now, in the era of "anyone can "release" anything" there is a glut of half-assed stuff being "released". Again, as I've said, every time you sit on the toilet, you don't shit gold, folks - don't release everything you do just because you can. Have some pride - raise the bar, for yourself and for others. Everyone benefits when people exercise self-editing and quality control. When that doesn't happen, the most likely place that these things get "released" is in the download-only or short-run CD-R categories - giving those categories a reputation for being the domain of the mediocre, and cluttering the landscape overall.

I, personally, have had no problems with the labels that I've dealt with and they've been 100% supportive of the music. Some people do seem to think that they can stop working to promote their band when they've got a label behind them and then they complain when it doesn't go that way. A label is *another person* to promote your band...you still need to work at it too.

I agree with Out Out on quality control. My main problem with a lot of the EBM stuff that I hear these days is that it sounds like demos. It's not bad, but it's not finished.

@PV: I see your point. Assumptions all around are dangerous. They lead to misinformed generalizations. Which can lead to misinformed actions...

But If tommy worded it differently, perhaps something like, 'when you've released your own music or music of others, spending hard-earned money to do so, you really feel how all this affects things' it might have been a more sympathetic statement.
Or, even, 'those who haven't spent hard-earned money releasing music might not understand' - which doesn't assume that a particular reader falls into any category, while still making (I think) a similar point.

Or am I outta whack here?

@PV: Re: labels: All labels I've been on were great. And not for one second did I think I had any right to simply not work once I was signed. Compromises often had to happen, sure. But could I ever say that one of them was out to screw me? Not in a million years. Not even close. I got to do things I might never have because of working with labels.

"If tommy worded it differently"

If Tommy reworded his posts he wouldn't be such an asshat all round. You and I don't always agree but we're civil about it because we can see each other's position. Tommy seeing someone else's position would be a world gone mad.

>Tommy seeing someone else's position would be a world gone mad.


:p agreed. Same SH.

back here again :-/

@Psykick Vampyr
alwats gotta put down EBM, and then when I hear what you make as noise it makes me fucking laugh....

you have no clue as always...we have different opinions dude..get over it..not everyone is trendy and agrees with you and the other downloading boring people here....and same with Alpha...another follower...

why don't you guys actually do something and release something worth a shit and do it for 40 other bands and then you will see more about what some of us with experience here are saying...its hard for you to understand when all you do is release a few CD-rs and think that you know about the music industry and all thats going on...I spend my life, day in and day out talking to other labels, and distributors , record stores and fans and know exactly what I am talking about...

I don't have the time that Out Out has to be all nice and sugar coat it, and I don't have to be like anyone else either.(no offense Out Out, I am just sick of hearing people put me down and kiss your ass when you say the same thing, just with a nice sugarcoated tone to it.)

also...Out Out hasn't released nearly what I have here (87 titles)
and doesn't have 600 titles on distro either...so...keep kissing his ass and trying to turn everyone else against what I say..its so typical from the same fucking tired people here..jeez...

@tommyt: I do agree - you and I basically take the same positions, we just "talk" differently... hope you didn't take offense to my paraphrasing you. I just thought that might point out the similarities in our positions. I certainly don't take offense at what you've just typed.


It's not that I have a ton of free time - it's that I have some time now that I've got a boy where he's busy napping or playing, and I can't always do much other than poke quietly around online. (And, yeah, sometimes I am on in bed after work, winding down, or even at work while waiting for a client to sort out a part or whatnot...) :)


Peculiar thing is, both you and PV actually concur in odd ways, that I've seen. (Musical taste not apparently part of them...) You just grate on each other, I guess. Too bad, too. [corny moment] But hey, not everybody can get along, I guess. I'm glad both of you talk with me though. [/corny moment]

I was thinking about it. I find myself agreeing with PV and tommyt a whole lot of the time. So, how does that work if you two are at such odds? (Please don't make any missing link jokes... or weakest link ones for that matter.) Just musin'.

@ tommy: Alpha = follower ?? Explain....

Psykick Vampyr, why...WHYYY?!

:/

The tommyt scale:

If you have accomplished less than tommyt you = a wannabe worthless loser trying to ruin the true players
If you have accomplished more than tommyt you = evil corporate sell-out trying to ruin the true players

Where do you sit along this scale?

I´m the wanna worthless loser, but therefore I don´t call every 2nd person a "sheeple" :D

@I stoled stefans humor

ahhhh trollbait....I think I know this one.

I love how idiots like you change your name each day or week to reflect the trends on this board...Its like you think you are funny being like that, but only to yourself of course.if only you accomplished 10% of what Stefan has in this scene...so you are jealous of him..we know...

what you just wrote about me is totally false, and lies, as usual...to prove my point...

I love bands like Combicrhist, KMFDM, Grendel, She Wants Revenge and those who are "accomplishing more" than me...as long as they are good people, good bands I wish them all the best and help them out by playing them all on my radio show CYBERAGE which is more famous then you will ever be, asshole...!!!
a radio show I do for 12 years for free!! and how many people I have turned onto these bands as well...you have no idea, cause you are a troll doing nothing.

sure I have accomplished more than so many have with my label and band, and thats why I get some jealous assholes like yourself just wanting to defame me or take any shot you can to try to turn others against, but then I actually have a reason to call you "a wannabe worthless loser trying to ruin the true players"...because thats what you are....good to see you recognize yourself in the game though....

@alpha
and thats why I call you a follower...cause its what you are...
see, I never personally had any issues with you..and even gave you feedback on music and tried being a friend,and never attacked you on here...
but I see you like getting in shots at me following these other losers who do nothing in this scene but change their names every week here to harass more people, talk more senseless crap and act like they actually matter..
its never anyone who matters..its always some loser that attacks me I notice..

so have fun being a follower and jerking around here...that seems to be the common thing that the "wannabees" do....they try to distract the people from the music and the real deal thats going on in the scene.try to be funny and go along with whoever is cool at the time here....follow sheep.

@Out Out
thanks for understanding my point there and agreeing as well..I know you and I are adult enough to understand each other and thats why I dig you too.

yeah..its been common ever since I became a label owner..theres always people that just want to start shit with me because of that...and if I was insignifficant they wouldn't care so much, but it seems my opinions especially mean a lot to some here, and it gets them so mad that we disagree...its funny cause I never really start any of the wars or personal attacks, but when someone reels into me, it gets me going and realizing how its so much like TMZ and all these other shows that just try hard to hurt the more popular musicians, artists, movie stars, whatever...its a mentality that many have on forums like these too...cause they are bored, boring people looking for someone to attack..

it shouldn't be about "how you say things"...its what you say!
this isn't high school..we all don't speak or write things the same way and why should we?? are we fucking robots??? I have my own way and have been that way for a long time..sure I am a bit more jagged and angry when people try to defame me or harass me cause theres no reason for it and its aggravating..so I do what i do in real time situations if someone was fucking with me...I argue back....

PV starts shit with me long ago, and then started putting down my band and label, and thats when i was always ready on defense with his shit..thats why we don't get along..he took more shots here on me, so I defend myself..thats how it goes..I am a defensive player..but if you watched the Super Bowl this year you can compare me to the NY Giants...Strahan sacks Brady! AGAIN!!!!!

- tommy: Nope that´s not right, I just think you are sounding like a broken record :) Otherwise no problems at all...

Did he say something to me?

@alpha
o.k..no problem then..cool..
but you don't get it ...this scene and all music scenes need people like myself and others who are educating and letting people know the real deal about whats going on..over and over again....otherwise the consensus is..

"fuck record labels and bands....they don't need to make any money off their music, they are all rich anyways...we should just file share it all for free, and not feel bad about it"

without a constant voice against that, the sheeple will keep doing what they do without realizing how much damage they cause to the music scene they are supposedly into.

I know it gets old..you think I like repeating myself, and getting annoyed in an otherwise fun life I have??? it sucks bro.,.i hate it...but its needed when theres so many clueless people that don't get it yet.....
so, its "part of the job' at this point..

thanks.

@ Out Out,

"I was thinking about it. I find myself agreeing with PV and tommyt a whole lot of the time. So, how does that work if you two are at such odds? (Please don't make any missing link jokes... or weakest link ones for that matter.) Just musin'."

Oh yeah, I do agree with a lot of Tommy's principals but it's how he goes about them that I don't agree with. Crap like "I have accomplished more than so many have with my label and band, and thats why I get some jealous assholes like yourself just wanting to defame me or take any shot you can" and all his other Gorilla-Boy chest-beating gets irksome (especially when the reason I'm so irritated is because I've been up all night doing Tommy's beloved "music industry" stuff like, oh I don't know, reviewing Siouxsie's gig last night and packaging up vinyl).

@ Tommy,

"PV starts shit with me long ago, and then started putting down my band and label"

If you think that disliking something is "putting you down" then this is probably where your problems stem from. As I've said multiple times, I support your enthusiasm and energy. I don't have to like your music to do this.

I can't help but find it strange that when I agreed with you, you liked my music yet When I disagree with you, you don't.

I think this is a great idea of Stefan's - wish I could be there to partake in the dialog.

I am morally against (illegal) filesharing, but understand modern practicalities that make buying an album undesirable - because as a consumer it comes down to 1 major point, what do I get for my dollar ?

In 1995, for entertainment value, a CD was a solid buy, but in 2008 - the CD costs the same, but not only are there so many more to buy, but the value I get from 1 CD is minor compared to the equivalent value I now get from 1 DVD, Computer game or my Mobile phone. So unless its an album I'm going to enjoy for 6 months or even 6 years, its value doesn't hold up. And buying an album (from a store) to support a band ? Its a joke, you spend $18 to give the band $1 ?!?! But this is not (most, and not indie) industry's fault (we live in a capitalist society, everyone does their work to earn their share).

I've been in bands, ran a (small) record label, I'm still paying off debts from it - in the (indie) music industry business cycle - almost everyone gets screwed. But what always stung the worst about downloaders, was not the download, was not the lost potential income (at least the manufactured product which does cost me money isn't stolen), but the disrespect and kick in the face I felt everytime. It is this disrespect as to why Stefan chose to close Dependent

hoinh.

Tommyt:

I generally agree with your sentiments in regards to MP3 downloading, buying records and indie labels supporting bands but you really should take a little more time when reading other people's posts.

A lot of your anger at people like Psychick Vampyre is misdirected. Not all of his posts are personal attacks and a lot of these disagreements could be sorted out with a little patience and discussion.

Chill.

"psykick"

GET IT RIGHT, FUCKER!

=)~

PV wrote regarding Tommy: "If you think that disliking something is "putting you down" then this is probably where your problems stem from. As I've said multiple times, I support your enthusiasm and energy."

dito.

@Jarod: What are you doing these days? No more GUP, no more bands, you sold Fiend and they turned it into a "Gothic Beauty"-type mag for a few issues and then stopped making it.. What are you up to?

GUP is still running mail-order... but otherwise I'm attempting to get a real life, earn an income for a change (weird experience I tells ya! I'm working part-time on minimum wage - I've never felt so rich compared to working with goth music LOL!).

so... anyone meet up with Stefan at Blacksun?

OUT OUT says...
"it's going to be years before these people turn around and say "what happened?""
And, sadly, few have the insight, or foresight, to see that this time will come if we stay on the path we're on. It's already here, but the effects are only just a ripple still. Wait 'til the wave grows...


------exactly man....I been saying this for years, and trying to help people understand how it is from the labels standpoint, but everyone wants to just go off on the labels and kiss ass to Apple and itunes, meanwhile they are more huge than any record label in this scene and the majors put together...a naive society who only seems to listen to "the man" and big corporations...(yes people Apple is way bigger than DSBP, Metropolis, and everyone else that are losing sales because of all kinds of download bullshit)

we (DSBP)have already lost a few grand this year from Icare Media dying and ripping us off for a shitload of our CD's and never paying up..
same with Music-Non-Stop.....these places went bankrupt because people aren't buying CD's nearly as much anymore, as they either feed the big corporates (itunes, emusic, amazon, etc..) and the smaller indie labels and distributors all lose out...thats fucked up and I wish people would wake up already instead of arguing what doesn't even require an argument,cause I am right.
theres so much thats going wrong in the industry and everyone who thinks that downloads and itunes are a godsend and helping the industry are really ignorant and naive....all any of it is doing is killing the music sales, and business and if people think thats a good thing , then watch when all your favorite bands get "reaL jobs" instead and decide that making music for free isn't worth all the time, money and effort that they put into it....society will just be filled with more clones, crappy bands with lotsa time on their hands and less and less quality as everyone thinks they are a band now with their easy to make music on free software and spamming the fuck out of everyone to listen to their mp3's....wooo hoo!!

I tried to challeng Stefan in New York!

But he was too busy and had not time for me.

was stefan at blacksun?

@manticle
"I generally agree with your sentiments in regards to MP3 downloading, buying records and indie labels supporting bands"

-----well, thanks..most should agree...if you don't support the bands and just download for free you are fucking them all over and aren't a true fan...good to see some can agree with this..;-)


"A lot of your anger at people like Psychick Vampyre is misdirected. Not all of his posts are personal attacks and a lot of these disagreements could be sorted out with a little patience and discussion"

----I actually only respond to him because he constantly feels the need to slag on me and "rally the troops" against me...for what reason I do not know...its like I am one dude with an opinion, I don't start personal wars with people until they start with me...then I let em have it..cause yeah..I have lots of anger in me, and when it needs to come out cause someone is slagging me its a good time to get it out...thats life..

@Jarod
yeah man, the label owners and people who have put out lots of money to make this scene happen are the ones losing and we are the ones speaking out and we are the ones getting the hate, flames and slagged on....thats how it goes..the good guys get fucked over while the itunes people get their assholes licked all day.

its our world...fuckass backwards!!

I had a great chat with Stefan about file sharing and such this past Saturday morning @ Blacksun.

I urge anyone interested in discussing file sharing with Stefan during this tour to leave a comment here. He truly does want to talk to folks about this stuff.

I think we agreed on more than we disagreed and I enjoyed the opportunity to talk with Stefan. No matter your viewpoint, I think you'll find him to be a really nice guy who his truly passionate about music.

Thanks Stefan for taking the time to chat.

I should also mention that I stated Hungry Lucy's position on sharing our music from the stage at Blacksun ("Share it all you want"). It was received with plenty of cheers ... the people have spoken.

That said, I only speak for Hungry Lucy ... and no one else. :)

@Hungry Lucy: Cool! I totally support an artist who gives permission for their work to be shared. And of course people cheered - people love free stuff! And they love it when artists approve of sharing - it helps some of them justify fucking over other artists. :(
It's when people take your giving permission as an excuse to simply apply it across-the-board - and we all know they do it al the time - that I take real issue.

Oh, and I totally understand that you speak for only you. It's the greedy ones out there who will, while they're haring your stuff also go ahead and share other people's music - without their permission - that pisses me off.

So, if the general public could simultaneously enjoy your endorsement for sharing your stuff and still respect other artists who have not given such permission (and unless an artist gives permission, one must assume it's not granted) the world would be a lot better off.
Is that a winged porcine? ;)

al=all
haring=sharing


al roker=al roker :P

wow...I didn't know Hungry Lucy was still around....cool...I like you guys..
any new releases other than downloads lately?I haven't heard or seen anything getting spun anywhere..just wondering..

hey, if you want everyone to share your music for free..then good for you...
and of course they will cheer you when you talk about it....everyone just wants free music and the more bands "give in" and just do it all for free, the less this will become a lucrative career choice.

I prefer to make this my career and work hard for it, and I like this to be where I spend most of my time on music and the business, and its good to make money back for all the cash we put out to release the music and help the bands get something back too.Giving it away all for free is fine if gas, food, rent, and cars, and everything else were also free...I'd be fine then.we all know thats not gonna happen as prices for all those things surge each day...but we all have to survive ya know, and some of us chose music as our career that we are trying to spend our time doing.Nothing wrong with selling your music and trying to do that....jeeez...

Hungry Lucy hasn't been active in the darkwave/goth/industrial community in the past year for sure. That's not by choice, just the way it has worked out. We do a weekly podcast and have built a nice little community around what we're doing.

For the record, we are (and will always be) trying to build a community around our music and other offerings. The value in file sharing for us, is that it creates exposure for our music and video ... it's internet word-of-mouth. We have seen a steady rise in CD sales and paid downloads as a result. So in that regard, granting permission to copy our music has been effective for us.

As I said to Stefan (and several people this weekend) I understand that we are in a very different position that many bands and labels that rely on their music for their bread & butter. I am certainly no crusader for free music or traditional supply methods. I understand that everyone along the traditional chain is negatively affected by illegal file sharing. And yes, it does suck. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with working hard and making a living doing something you love.

My concern here is that I will be seen as part of the problem by allowing people to copy my music. Hopefully my words above make clear my intents and thinking.

Not part of the problem as long as you explain to your fans that just because you grant permission to share your music that it isn't validation for sharing other artists' music without knowing for certain - from their mouths directly - that it's okay with them. As long as that's made clear, it might actually be an effective way of deterring people from some of the damaging aspects of "sharing". A little clarification and education for the people... might do good...

@Out Out: Great point. I will make this clear on our next podcast and in any future discussions. Honestly, I would have assumed that was obvious ... but upon reflection ... not so much.

Thanks

Quick update from "on the road". we have two serious contenders for the filesharing debate happening in Seattle and San francsco. I had a cuple of chats with Warren/Hungry Lucy) (As stated above and some more guys), but we did not have the time to set up any recording facility, it was only some 30 minute discussions.

But I hope to get something done on thoise forthcoming seabound shows week after next.

Stefan

@Hungry Lucy: Cool! You rock.
You know, I wish that it was obvious, but I've heard so, so many silly/stupid/ignorant/innocent/crazy/selfish/wacky justifications for violating artists' rights and "fucking the man" and "information wants to be free" and "all music should be free" and on and on and on to know.... it's completely not obvious.

So thanks for helping the cause AND doing what you need to do. They're compatible concepts, I believe. :)

I thought Stefan wanted to talk to "evil filesharers".... ?

I don´t think that Hungry Lucy belongs in this category. Or any other
person of the regular posters here....

the bottom line is...
the more bands that want everyone to "share their music for free" the more people think its o.k to do that with ALL bands, ALL releases...I been saying this all along and it makes sense..it also makes "villains"out of the rest of us who are just trying to make a living and recoup for all we spend on our releases...thats what sucks....downloads have caused more trouble in the music scene than anything ever has, and its hard for some of us not to talk about that.
you cannot deny that...the death of CD shops, distributors, labels, bands, zines is NOT a good thing by any means..sorry....

I am just glad that I was a kid of the 80's and got to witness when people actually cared more about the bands and music and bought the music with joy, and not always complaining about prices, and not always looking to steal music and we made so many bands big names back then that would never be in this commercialized world of horrible rap and american idol shit...
its a shame to see how everything has digressed so much now.

but, it made me excited about the music scene back then....to hear all these cool bands that people liked and understood and I figured that the electronic music scene would just get better and grow more through time....but...once downloads came into the fold sales have died out more for this kinda music than anything else, as hip hop and emo and pop still flourish...I wonder why???

most people into electronic music are getting free downloads thats why..

it puts it all into perspective for me.

Well most things from the good old 80ties have digressed - went downhill.... fact. Be it politics or music or filesharing or movies or even architecture....but still some good bands and films out there, but you must dig deeper then before. And most people are too lazy and/or have no interest to dig, they rather "eat" what they get fed from the media and big industries...fact.

too true

The good old days?...Really?!

"does were te good ole days, son....now everyting is gone to hell..."

Politics and film were better in the 80s? You mean the Reagan era? The Cold War? Vanilla Ice? Steven Seagal? McGuyver? The war on Drugs?

Right on brother.

Shit moves in cycles. Parts of the 80s were dynamic and exciting, others were complete bollocks just like every other decade. Many of the exciting things happened exactly because what was going on in the mainstream was so fucked up. That's how this whole scene started.

I too remember hunting up copies of tapes from new bands I heard about from friends, then saving money to buy the original cassettes then saving more money to buy CDs and Vinyl. I still get that excitement today. I'm just too old to even consider changing my perspective to becoming a digital downloader - whether legal or illegal.

The 50s - now there was an era.

I was basically referring to how "electronic music" or "new wave" was widely accepted then by all, and the mainstream and had more airtime and more video time than it ever does now...everything now in the mainstream is rap/hip hop and American Idol winners and losers....thats what I am saying.

if there was more electronic music that was accepted and appreciated in the mainstream it would trickle down a bit, and get more people aware and intrested in EBM/ Industrial and modern synthpop.

I was more referring to Alpha's post re: 80s

- manticle: No I don´t meant V. ICe or S. Seagal or Mc Guyver. And the cold war had a certain attraction and safety feeling (for me personally). But I might be biased cause I´m a child of the 80ties.

For politics I meant mostly German politics which were better than these days.

Check here 50 films from the 80ties (I don´t know how old manticle is and if he don´t know those films):

http://german.imdb.com/chart/1980s

@Alpha: I was born mid seventies so I too am a child of the 80s. I'm cetainly not denying there were some great bits of culture to come out of the 80s. My point is that for every good film you can name you can probably think of ten more that are shithouse. The same is likely to be said for each generation. While I often think to myself that 'back in my day' this or that was better, it's probably due to the fact that I'm an old grumpy bastard more than any real trend.

PS I know you weren't talking about Steven Seagal.

PPS: I'm surprised you felt safer in the eighties. The never-ending threat of nuclear war, terrorist bombings and plane hijackings every day, governments having 'wars' on unseen unknowable unidentifiable enemies...............

Some things never change.

"Well most things from the good old 80ties have digressed - went downhill.... fact. Be it politics or music"

I guess the current administration does make Reagan and Bush Senior seem like the golden age.

- manticle: "The never-ending threat of nuclear war, terrorist bombings and plane hijackings every day, governments having 'wars' on unseen unknowable unidentifiable enemies......"

You are talking of today ?

- cthulhuphunk: x-act. And Schmidt + Kohl also for Germany.

@Alpha - I'm comparing today with the eighties and suggesting that not that much has really changed.