Maybe the problem with Futurepop is in another club in another town. Europe is full of it.

...the scene is small, the scene loves you and hates you VERY fast. apop is selling much more outside, those poeple don´t take this music thing as a holy mission. they don´t post on amazon, they don´t read the small indie mags. i know a lot of people who would never read a music mag, would never post their opinion on the net or visit a forum...but they buy apop..;)

Very good analyze Dunkelwerk!!
The fuck'ture pop it 's as the new wave of the 80s: on one side you had excellent bands in the style of Grauzone or New Order and in the other side hideous Duran Duran or horrible Spandau Ballet !!!
..so there will be some good music and some bullshit :-(
it's just the law of the market that steers everything, and not that of the musicians !!

"Maybe the problem with Futurepop is in another club in another town. Europe is full of it."

Mongo Erektus, are you talking about Germany? If that is the case, I'm sorry to say that you don't know what you're talking about.

I went to several darkwave/electro clubs in Munich, Nurnberg, Zapfendorf, Stuttgart, Tuebingen, Frankfurt, Karlsruhe, Heidelberg, Berlin and Leipzig. Only one club in Munich played much futurepop. As for the rest, I don't know how many nights I would have wished to hear more futurepop.

No, instead German clubs are full of DM, The Cure, Manson and Sisters of Mercy. It's not uncommon to hear several songs in the same night from these bands. Depending on the area, they can be a bit strong on either neo-folk, harsh industrial, '80, old-school ebm or even lame mainstream metal. Most of the time, the playlist consist mostly mostly of the old hits from before Covenant first cd. Granted, they can play Apop (Eclipse), VNV and Icon of Coil, but that's often the most of what you're going to hear of futurepop.

Personally, I would rather hear a bunch of futurepop and also hard ebm/electro like several on this board complain to suffer from rather than going to yet one more lame German clubbing nights where they even dare to play Linking Park and Evanescanse. Don't forget Manson, he's a well appreciated symbol of the German gothic scene. It's not uncommon to hear SEVERAL of his songs in the same stupid night.

Clubbing was far much better when I used to live in Montreal. They usually only played cool ebm/industrial from the last years. No Dj would have dared to play much Manson anymore since he was left to the metal/alternative crowd where he belongs to.

well the thing is I don't like futurepop myself. all bands sound the same to me, same way of singing (too bland), same sounds...I really can't tell Apop from VNV from Icon from asemblage.

(your turn to throw me stones)

They get played all the time around here, but so does synth and powernoise. And I see it on playlists constantly. Personally, I don't play *too* much anymore, but I'm never averse to people requesting it and have been listening to the newest Covenant a ton recently and enjoy it more than I did when it first came out.

Schattendasein: Yes, Germany. Because Germany sets the standards for the scene in all of western europe. Therefor I also speak about Belgium and Sweden and Denmark and Italy and all the rest.


Futurepop is all over the place and in my opinion someone should do something about it.

Mongo Erektus, are you talking about Germany? If that is the case, I'm sorry to say that you don't know what you're talking about.

The same holds true in Hamburg, depending on the club. Most of the club nights, and/or events I have been to there don't play a lot of future pop. (just the occasional song here and there)

Futurepop is all over the place and in my opinion someone should do something about it

What the heck are people supposed to do? Ban it? It's what gets new people into the clubs. It's like house music-- anyone can listen to it til they hear something better.

And that something is boy bands.

Wait. Oops.

Why is anyone talking about F****rpop as something that should NOT be exterminated? I don't get it.

Because it's just music. You don't like it, don't listen to it.

There's some good and some bad. The trend'll die eventually. People are getting into harder stuff again, IMHO. I can play teh futurp00p and fill a floor but I can also drop any number of powernoise/industrial bands and fill it even more.

If ya don't like it, become a DJ and pimp the stuff you like...but be forewarned that if you ONLY play whatcha like you won't be a very popular (or requested) DJ;)

@Kodae: firstly, futurepop or whatever isnt gone. we still sell it conisistantly. the thing is, in a scene this small, it seems to me that a lot of the Djs and scene people are a little ahead of the curve when it comes to what is cool.(in their opinion)
trust me, most of the people who say that they hate that stuff used to buy it like crazy and were calling constantly to find out if Burning Empires came in yet.
I think this scene is a lot like the punk scene... The whole scene here in the state anyway, was starting to die here up until 1997 or 1998, and then some bands came up with a different sound. The djs jumped on it, played the crap out of it, and eventually the people who thought VNV was the second coming decided that they were sick of it cause all the Hot Topic goths now liked it. Sooner or later they will all hate Hocico and the harsh bands, for no other reason than that they are popular.
at least Bogart with all his parodying has actually come right out and said that he used to think VNV were good, and didnt like the direction the group headed, and that his whole simronan thing was as much a commentary on the hero worship than the group themselves.

Harmonizer is not the best selling Apop album here in the states. Welcome To Earth is.
DJs should be playing what the kids want to hear. if others beside yourself want to hear a song, request it from the DJ. then dance to it when they spin it!!!
if they dont spin it and you requested it, or becaue they hate it, thats a bigger issue and it should bear some looking in to why they are getting serviced with promo materials that they wont play.

Dunkelwerks assesment was completly on the money.

and Eurotic:
i think that the newest Covenant was great.... but i had to listen to it, put it down for a few months and then revisit it to actually appreciate it.


and rereading Eurotic's post:
right there was a dj saying that he will play something that is requested...

...thats called being a good DJ... keeping the kids happy.

Re: Covenant-- I liked it when it came out, but I REALLY enjoy it now. And you can't really be a DJ in this scene and not take requests. It's just good sense. Plus I was more of a "I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DAMMIT" DJ and, well, that wasn't working out too well. I still keep up with the new shtuff more than the average club kid, but that's part of the gig IMHO. Play the new cool stuff with the old cool stuff mixed in to keep people happy. A balanced night is a good thing and doesn't alienate anyone off the dancefloor.

/steps off soapbox:)

There are tons of clubs all over the place who claim they play hard ebm and power noise, but when you arrive you'll drown in Futurepop.


E think the club scene and all the future pop stinks. And I still don't understand why futurepop should not be extermintated, along with Marlyn Manson, Michael Jackson, The Beatles and Howard Jones. Mainstream pop music is mainstream pop music and should die die die.

ehehe, it futurepop was selling the same way The Beatles were I'd prolly have a different opinion.

And come out to Wisconsin when me, K-Y, Siberia or Whiterabbit are DJing and you'll get powernoise out the ASS:) This is a promise.

Wow, what an original topic. Mongo, just listen to what you like. If you don't like futurepop, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. If you truly can't find a club that doesn't play it, you're not looking very hard.

And I DON'T think the backlash against this kind of stuff is as big as people think it is. I just think the people who don't like it are more outspoken about it. Most of that stuff still outsells the harder, darker stuff, so SOMEONE is obviously still enjoying it enough to buy.

the problem isn't not the Future pop but the clichés of this dancemusic !
Mister Colasensurround have reason when he says "future pop = same sound,same way of singing..."
By using even cheap sounds which the DJ of english progressive trance (Paul Oakenfold,Sasha,Judge Jules or Pete tong ) we'll only be annihilating the electronic music .
This is the real problem of Future pop now !
The problem is similar in the EBM & industrial noise scene because many bands are not original and make of the noise because it 's fashionable ...
In France goth people love Apop ,Assemblage 23, Covenant or VNV .. nevertheless there are few French groups which copy this style and the French scene is more industrial,electronica and electro pop than easy Future Pop !
The one who makes the music to please the mass will have two possibilities : become big as DM or to finish in a fuckin 'hole :-)))
If this style was more original we wouldn't criticize it ... I think

ahh I'm sorry my english is very badly because I speak french or spanish only ;-)

This was said in another thread, but it holds true here. People zone in more on what they don't like than what they do. As a hater of the genre one may feel "inundated" by future pop at the club, when in fact the DJ may be doing their best to be balanced. Also, I find in this scene people generally are A LOT more outspoken about what they don't like than what they do.

Oh, Christ. >:|

"Mongo, just listen to what you like. If you don't like futurepop, vote with your wallet and don't buy it."

Really? This means I can vote against? Well, I don't go much to clubs anymore because of all the pop. But how could I possible support the good music by going clubs that does not exist? I think all that is left for me is to hang around here and complain.


Eurotic: What's the name of your club?

I DJ at Inferno Nightclub in Madison, WI, as does Siberia and Whiterabbit. We mix all kindsa stuff, but I always do a lot of powernoise/harsh stuff. I also spin synth/futurep00p (the stuff I like), but I'm a hardass at heart.

K-Y spins in Milwaukee and she and joolz (who spins all kindsa swirly stuff) at Club Anything.

They also do the Flesh and Steel radio show.
http://www.hexentanz.com/hexenradio/hexenradio.htm

This week even featured one of MY tracks (as Caustic, my powernoisey/old skool industrial project):)

Anyway, just request stuff if clubs aren't playing what you want. I recommend making mix discs for the DJs too, and being respectful as well if they aren't into what you're into *yet*. Sometimes it just takes people some time to get used to it.

Mongo - The clubs don't exist? It's funny, because I've noticed that the people who complain that they don't like what is being played in clubs NEVER show up when clubs do something different such as a harsh electro or noise night. I've lived all over the US and I've seen it happen again and again. People piss and complain that the club plays too much VNV or whatever, but when a DJ announces a noise and experimental night or a hard electro night, maybe 5 people who up and the club night never happens again.

@funkenstein:
true dat.

@ eurotic: How is club anything? i'm gonna be there next month...

C ? is okay and worth checking out. Nice atmosphere but not so great a sound system. I'll be DJing there tonight, actually. What nights are you gonna be there? We have Madtown DJs there on Fridays.

I'd say come out to Madison if you've got time, too. Saturdays at Inferno are a blast and it's only an hour or so away.

DJ announces a noise and experimental night or a hard electro night, maybe 5 people who up and the club night never happens again.

This ALWAYS happens. I have seen these things die so many times.

"C ? is okay and worth checking out. Nice atmosphere but not so great a sound system. I'll be DJing there tonight, actually. What nights are you gonna be there? We have Madtown DJs there on Fridays."

i am tour managing IOC in September and October. i think we are hitting Club Anything on the 26th of September.

"I'd say come out to Madison if you've got time, too. Saturdays at Inferno are a blast and it's only an hour or so away."

actually, i'd like to have stopped there if there was time, it one of the few cities with a scene that i havent been to.

"DJ announces a noise and experimental night or a hard electro night, maybe 5 people who up and the club night never happens again."

Yeah, but too often they announce hard music but when you show up the play FUTUREPOP. In the end noone believe them anymore and therefor noone shows up.

"I've lived all over the US and I've seen it happen again and again"

Good for you. I have so far never been on you continent so what do I know about america? All I say is that Europe is full of pop music and in my opinion pop music is a problem that should be ... exterminated.

Eurotic: I think I have even heard of your Inferno somewhere. I'll pay you a visit soon enough ;-).

i am tour managing IOC in September and October. i think we are hitting Club Anything on the 26th of September.

Awesome. Hopefully we'll run into each other at the show then. Stochastic Theory's on my label and will be one of the openers along with Null Device so me and the lady'll definitely be there:).

Should be an awesome night. I haven't seen IOC in a long time and really enjoy Andy's boucing around:)

I respect obviosuly everyone's tastes, and since I live in a country (Spain) where club music is definitely not futurepop, they don't know about it, I'd prefer to listn to these bands than what i actually have to listen.

BUT I insist on my point: all futurepop bands sound the same: same synths, same efcets on the voice, even the same way of singing. are you really really really sure that if you heard a song by any of these bands without knowing which band it is exactly you could recognise it?? really?

The problem is that futurepop is not a style, it has become a trend, a fashionable trend. A band like Apoptygma Berzerk is aware that if he had a harder sound, he would sell tons less than making such soft music. sad but true.

I'm not one of those nostalgical persons who always thinks old music was better than new, not at all. I listen to many nowaydays bands. But nowadays most electronic bands within a genre use the same synths, the same equipment, and they end up sounding almost identical.

cola, i see your point, but the same can be said for powernoise, or techno, or house, synthpop, hard industrial, hip hop, death metal, ect.
there are quite a few hard electro bands for example that sound quite similar. its just in fashion currently to rip on futurepop.

and really, there were 3 "genre-defining" futurepop albums. Apop's welcome to earth, VNV's empires, and Covenants United States of Mind (or some would say Europa)
really none of them sounded all that similar to me.

and all three bands moved beyond the sound that they used on those albums to varying degrees.

5 years ago people were sick of the "FLA clones" and the "Leather Strip ripoffs"

before that it was "All these Ministry copycats suck..."

sooner or later, the stuff that is gaining popularity now will peak, and a lot of the people who listen to it now will say it sucks and the whole cycle will start over again.

"sooner or later, the stuff that is gaining popularity now will peak, and a lot of the people who listen to it now will say it sucks and the whole cycle will start over again."

So then, no one really hates futurepop in itself it's just that futurepop is popular right now and in another few years the bands that are "up and rising" will create a new genre that will get popular and everyone will hate that at the time?

Then I guess I have some more questions. If this scene is already underground, what's the point of not liking a group just because they're well known in a small, underground music scene? Are people really that petty? I don't understand why people can't just like what they like reguardless of where they are in "the scene".

Are people really that petty?

Yup

Not like that at all. I complain about futurepop because it is made to generate alot of money, just like Micael Jackson, The Beates, Marlyn Manson, General motors, Coca Cola, Nokia and all the rest. The result is an effective comercial product that serves no other purpous than to generate as much money as possible with as little efforts as possible. So it sucks.

oh..cause all those futurepop artists are just rolling in cash.

Yeah, M E, I think you're a little off there. It may be the easiest for people to dance to, but I think there are only a few bands that actually *may* eke out a living on it.

Because all they care to do is earn money. I have no problem with people living from their music. But with futurepop the music itself has no purpous. So it sucks.

"5 years ago people were sick of the "FLA clones"

Yup, this was a favourite topic on RMI around that time. People are always willing to blame one sub-genre as the downfall of the scene.

do you have any idea how little money there is in this scene?

i cant believe that i have to say this again, but nobody gets rich off of this type of music.

and say what you will about a lot of the music, but i dont think it is right to say that futurepop has no purpose because you dont like it.

music is for some, a cathartic way to release some sort of emotional light house. i think that a lot of people out there think that futurepop has a lot of purpose for them. i have heard from a lot of people that some certian song meant something to them, or that they lost someone and that listening to someone elses music feels like a way to realise that they arent the only person to go through something like that, ect. and so on.
how many of these people do you actually know for a fact are in this for the money only? i am willing to bet zero... but saying that they do this music for the money is a much more trollish way of expressing your self, isnt it?

so, before you say that something serves no purpose, you might want to consider some of your posts in this thread. i am more than happy to hear someone who doesnt agree with my point of view express a thought out opinion, but this is just getting childish.

Jim, I do know a few people who do this from money only. Personal friends, and they are aware of my opinion.

I am really getting sick this. Am I against something I don't seem to have the right to exsist. So you suck too.

No, the problem is that you're basing an opinion on a very small minority. Just because you have friends who do that doesn't mean everyone else does. Nobody said you don't have the right to exist, but your thinking is extremely short-sighted.

Probably about 99% of bands labelled "futurepop" still have day jobs. I only know one person who is making a living off of this, and the only reason he is succeeding in doing that is because he also does remixes and has invested his money wisely. There are people who want to do this for the money, sure; but they are also shortsighted, because as Jim mentioned, there ain't no cash in this scene. :/

i didnt say that you didnt have a right to exsist, or that you suck. I just stated that a baseless arguement is pointless.
i have no problem with you not liking something.
i have no problem with you stating your opinion.
i just feel that saying what basically amounts to "i dont like it so it sucks and should be 'exterminated' " without having any real reasoning behind it is basically trolling.
i do not, honestly think that you are a troll per say, i was just stating that your comments were heading in that direction.

and as for the you suck too comment, i never said that, and really, what are we, a bunch of 9 year olds? people cant have a debate on a topic with out it melting down to "you suck!!!".... "no you suck!!" type of crap?

mongo-

yes! we should do something about futurepop! it sucks, especially compared to the brilliant, diverse, and fresh-sounding genres of powernoise and harsh electro. every time i hear a bunch of 8-bit distorted noise, stompy drum presets, and crappy growling vocals, i say to myself, "man, this is the pinnacle of modern music".

oh, and you're also right about getting rid of the Beatles, that Lennon guy couldn't write a song to save his own ass.... using all those weird chords and melodies and stuff...

the scene just needs more balance...the DJ's especially..
I see this obssessive compulsive style from most djs'...they either play ALL futurepop, or ALL power noise, or ALL old wave...it gets redundant and makes the DJ look like a follower and not anything more than a puppet.

if you guys in the clubs could mix it up a bit and make the experience more intresting and rewarding for us all by playing a bit from each genre that relates, and getting more bands heard...the way I would dig clubs would be if they were more like...

http://www.cyberage.cx

balance....

"I really can't tell Apop from VNV from Icon from asemblage."

uhh I think someone needs to clean out their ears lol

the reason I love many songs from these bands is precisely because each of them have a unique synth sound..... I think the reason most industrial lovers complain about the above bands is because they can't stand any hint of melody...

"I think the reason most industrial lovers complain about the above bands is because they can't stand any hint of melody..."

The reason why you think that is probably because you have not understood a
word of what anyone has been saying.

"I really can't tell Apop from VNV from Icon from asemblage."

Me neither.

most futurepop sounds the same....definately.

I think what pisses most people off is that "futurepop" bands are getting more attention than bands doing harder stuff in this scene, but it's always the softer music that gets to a larger crowd and I think there's nothing we can do about that, but support the bands you actually like instead of just trying to bash the other ones with no real reasons, according to me...
Yes a lot of futurepop bands sound alike, but in my opinion, many of them have their own special sound...
I have no problem with djs spinning all kinds of electronic bands of our scene, but what really pisses me off is them spinning Mansonette, evanescence and other crap like that and all the goths going berzerk on the dancefloors, that's ugly.

just another thought to add to the pot. get 10 people to listen to a piece of music and the people who don't like it will always speak the loudest, irrespective of who is in the majority. That's a sad fact of human nature, especially when the scene is partially based on emotions like "discontent, anger, rejection" and what not. Close links to the goth scene mean people just love whineing (me too, it just isn't fair...).
DJ's are there to make the kids happy but a good DJ must know how to educate, give 'em three tracks they like and then a couple of tracks which the DJ thinks they'll like in 4 months time. If you know what you're doing you keep your job. Otherwise you risk what we have in Rome: the most popular, long-standing evening plays the same Sisters of Mercy, Joy Division and the rest every week, if you're lucky they might just play a new clone of the same old bands. Great for a nostalgia night but after almost two decades maybe one should move on. Things just stagnate and no scene can thrive like that.
My mum says she can't hear the difference between APB and VNV or even IOC (Damn, I see a trend there, why didn't I give my band a three letter short name? Uhm, or maybe I did). She also can't hear the difference between hardly any of the stuff I listen to, unless I'm playing Motown or Opera. "It all sounds the same to me" is one of the oldest comments I've ever heard. I say the same for anything Metal, or Reggae etc but it sure as hell isn't a limit of the music, it's my defect because I don't like those genres so I don't waste my time exploring them anymore than I already have in the past. My loss but I'l live with it. I'm not sure what future pop was ever meant to be if not just an attempt at product differentiation by record companies / bands / followers to increase sales / sales / coolness (it's new, it's fresh, it's Future Pop! Sure, last week we called it EBM but that name is so old and this is new.)
I've been called future pop, I'd rather call what I do "electronic" and then leave it up to the listener to a more personal label on it.

Paul.

"I really can't tell Apop from VNV from Icon from asemblage."

Seriously. If you can't tell them apart, get some new speakers.

They are quite different. But I guess some think all electronic music sounds the same.

"If you can't tell them apart, get some new speakers."

Seriousily. Get a new veganmaster.

to me, not being able to tell the difference between bands like these just means you don't listen to it enough and don't really know what you're talking about.

i can say the same thing about r&b, hip hop, country, rap, etc. i don't know hardly anything about those genres. i don't listen to them. they all sound the same to me. but i also understand that people who do listen to it and like it hear all the differences and variety.

i hear people say the same things about goth, power noize, ebm, electro, synth pop... all the time. at this point i think people are just complaining for the sake of it.

i'm not saying people should listen to something they don't like just to know why they don't like it. i'm just saying people should stop complaining about something they really don't know about.

I think futurepop has the more redundant and formulatic structure though..
same synth sounds(get a virus or plug in for free), same clean vocal(sounds boring with no effect the whole album)
and lyrics about love, getting girls and all that lame crap..
I like electro-industrial more because it tackles the real issues of today...and talks about more in life than love and girls.....thats why most futurepop/synthpop is boring to me.

down with bush!

I think futurepop has the more redundant and formulatic structure though..

The same can be said about noise, and also your beloved electro-industrial as well. It really depends on the act, and the listener. Music is and always will be subjective.

I hear alot more diversity and intelligent lyrics coming out of the electro-industrial scene though...but I know thats my opinion, not law..
I do agree with you on power noise though....1 outta 2 ain't bad...:-)

Personally, I prefer the lighter stuf, futurepop, synthpop, electropop...whatever. It also so happens that I loved Harmonizer and as for what I've heard, some people loved it too, and some hated it. No I don't think alot of people outside the scene are buying it, I honestly believe that people who like Apop aren't posting nearly as much as those who don't like Apop probably because they're sick of all the bashing towards Apop as a group and Stephan as a person. As for futurepop as a genre, if you like it cool, if not, cool. We can all go on and on about the politics of things, record companies, etc. but in the end it's simply a matter of listening to what you like. I also noticed some concern over the direction of things, some people seem to feel that things are going in a bad direction or whatever in the scene, etc. I'm not really sure how to phrase it but I think you know what I mean. I honestly believe that the vast majority of the bands in this scene count their music as #1 priority, and all the political bullshit comes second. As for any suspicions that record companies are shrewd, well of course they are, because they're a business! They also happen to be a business that the bands need, so again just listen to what you like regardless of how it's labelled, be it futurepop, industrial, or whatever.

Also, on a different note, at the place I go to ( here in London, Canada) I find there's prettymuch an even balance between futurepop, industrial, EBM, 80s, electropop, electroclash, goth, IDM and every other sub-genre that exists in this scene.The only thing that is not played is stuff like Manson, Evanessence, etc. Judging from what some of you have been complaining about, maybe you should come here!

good to hear one club is mixing it up...but I am fine here in the nice hot southwest...I don't have time to go to clubs anymore anyways...work and music is all my time..

I would love to see more USA clubs with better playlists...thats for sure.